Warning: Fake Katana Being Sold with Altered Inscriptions and Papers

[Gakusee]

2 hours ago, sabiji said:

Can't this be done via the Juyo Nado Zufu volumes of the respective sessions? It should be easy to see there...

For sure….with Juyo. But ToHo and HoTo you need to call them 

[sabiji]

52 minutes ago, Gakusee said:

For sure….with Juyo. But ToHo and HoTo you need to call them 

Yes, of course, I was referring directly to Lewis' question.

[waki180270]

Gentlemen, right-thinking and vigilantes, I have to answer you after this flood of stupidity, ignorance and meanness.
First of all, if you had a little cordiality, respect and good manners, you could have contacted me directly by email, my contact details are easily found on Google, and kindly warned me that there was a problem with this saber. A friend warned me and the same day I withdrew it from the sale.
It is impossible for me to check all the NBTHK certificates when a seller submits lots on Catawiki, I see hundreds of lots every week....
To clarify this situation, I have no connivance with anyone, so stop these baseless accusations.
For my part, I sincerely think that Mr. Cor Slock was scammed by a merchant who wanted to make money by adding a cutting test on this katana. The truth will soon be out... and it will make noise.
Dear Yojimbo, I don't think I have the pleasure of knowing you, and that's a shame. I don't understand this hostility towards me. Come and meet me and get to know me before talking nonsense about me.
In any case, soon you will have no more topics of discussion other than my work as a polisher, which by the way, was recognized and certified by an award by the NBTHK this year.
I will be in Utrecht the weekend of June 13, I will be there as an exhibitor. Come and meet me and get to know me, you will see my work and we will be able to discuss in all cordiality in joy and respect.

kind regards

Patrice Sabbah

[Hokke]

On 12/16/2024 at 1:32 AM, Tsuku said:

Just as a FYI, the NBTHK Hozon/Tokubetsu Hozon certificates have an embossed stamp that passes over both the cardstock and the photograph. If you look closely at the altered certificate, you will see that there is no stamp on the photograph. This is a giant red flag.

One should always inspect thoroughly and with a critical eye. I have even found modified Tanobe-sensei sayagaki in the wild.

It also seems the hanko stamps over the reg number and text are washed out and lack detail. 

[KungFooey]

On 1/28/2025 at 2:37 AM, waki180270 said:

Gentlemen, right-thinking and vigilantes, I have to answer you after this flood of stupidity, ignorance and meanness.

Unfortunately Patrice, to quote Benjamin Franklin, “It takes many good deeds to build a good reputation, and only one bad one to lose it".

 

You're probably entirely innocent but, when you lend your name to something, you are also putting your personal honor and reputation on the line. Claiming expertise and then ignorance is always poorly received.

 

I'm sorry that it all panned out like this.

 

Dee

[waki180270]

Dear Deanna, I would agree with you if I had made a proven and complicit mistake with the seller. That said, what I blame all these Zorros of social networks who have nothing else to do than criticize and sully reputations, is that they do nothing constructive. Instead of shooting people, they should be kind and contact people and report things in a cordial manner. There is always an explanation and a way to resolve problems with a constructive dialogue. An email, a call or a carrier pigeon, my contact details are easily found on Google. We must be more human in life.

Patrice

[Shugyosha]

Patrice, you made a big mistake and you own it. A little more contrition and a lot less of accusing those that drew attention to your failure would go a long way towards restoring your reputation.

[Brian]

Patrice,
Agree with you in many ways, but I'm sure you understand any social media platform representing a community has to go through the good and the bad, censoring one side only presents one side and doesn't do much good for the community.
Some choose to ignore it, and not respond and then there is only one side to a story. I prefer it when people engage with the public and then we know they are approachable, and get to hear both sides. Obviously some have an issue with certain things, but if you search your name here, there are many good compliments on your shows and work and items, and people can make up their own minds. One or 2 people are always going to have an issue with a seller or person in the community, but most people will weigh up all the facts and decide for themselves.
I can't comment on the above issue, but from what I have heard, I would have you work on my blades without worry. As John said, owning the mistake goes a long way to solving issues.

[Lewis B]

1 hour ago, waki180270 said:

Dear Deanna, I would agree with you if I had made a proven and complicit mistake with the seller. That said, what I blame all these Zorros of social networks who have nothing else to do than criticize and sully reputations, is that they do nothing constructive. Instead of shooting people, they should be kind and contact people and report things in a cordial manner. There is always an explanation and a way to resolve problems with a constructive dialogue. An email, a call or a carrier pigeon, my contact details are easily found on Google. We must be more human in life.

Patrice

Unfortunately I have to disagree and its not an isolated incidence (see thread from 2023 and 1st contribution on NMB). It is not the job of the viewer/potential buyer to police and rectify a mistake, honest or not. I would imagine many who buy on Catawiki are poorly educated on the field of interest eg Nihonto, Tosogu, Katchu etc and rely on the 'experts' expert opinion and sellers description, which can, at times, be best described as misinformed and at worst, downright dishonest. There is at least one recent example on NMB where such a novice buyer was effectively scammed by an unscrupulous dealer on Catawiki, with virtually no buyer protection and a very poor response from the dealer. That dealer is still active on the auction site, which is further evidence of the sites questionable ethical business model.

If you claim you are overworked it maybe worth reconsidering the evaluation system on platforms like Catawiki. I assume you are paid by Catawiki on the number of listings you evaluate. Perhaps ~300/week is too many to do a proper and effective job. Would a retainer be a better system for services provided by independent, 3rd party appraisers?

[Matsunoki]

If you set yourself up as a high profile expert and you are paid for that role then you really need to be able to perform it. “Not enough time” or “genuine mistake” is no use to buyers who find themselves scammed or mislead. It is very demanding role, not something to be undertaken unless you really know the full range of what you are evaluating or certifying. 

Being kind and nice just doesn’t cut it in this harsh business…..sadly. 
I speak as an ex-consulatant for an auction house. 
I wish you well as a polisher, I suspect you will be much happier. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Catawiki is generally viewed by many as bottom of the barrel, anyone wanting to be taken seriously in the community would distance themselves from the chicanery encountered there. 

[waki180270]

I see that you do not know how Catawiki works. I have to enlighten you. First of all, I am paid monthly and not as a percentage and with a fixed salary. The experts are there to avoid selling Chinese copies or prices that are not in line with market prices. The experts cannot intervene on the descriptions of the objects and if the seller refuses the expert advice, the latter cannot do anything about it. This is unfortunately a reality. This is why I will soon be leaving this site in order to devote myself to polishing and appraisals of physical auction rooms such as Drouot or others. Do not hesitate to come and meet me at my home or at fairs, I would be very happy to be able to meet you for real. I will be at the arms fairs of Poitier, Ciney, Mulhouse between March and April and of course in Utrecht at the Japan Art Expo on the weekend of June 13.

[Matsunoki]

On 1/27/2025 at 5:37 PM, waki180270 said:

A friend warned me and the same day I withdrew it from the sale.

 

9 minutes ago, waki180270 said:

The experts cannot intervene on the descriptions of the objects and if the seller refuses the expert advice, the latter cannot do anything about it.

The above two statements appear to contradict each other.

I think you will find that working for physical auction houses brings just as many problems and challenges because buyers do have rights against these auctioneers if things are misdescribed, fake, messed with etc. And sellers will still try the same “tricks” to deceive. 
 

You will sleep better as a togishi. 

[YOJIMBO]

Hey, you fake experts, you're lying completely and brutally, yes, I sold on the catalíky myself. And I was constantly getting orders from you that if I didn't change it, you wouldn't include it in the offer and I couldn't do anything about it, so you're a liar, a lying amateur, a stupid idiot.

[YOJIMBO]

Well, I'll probably get threats from the boss again that I should behave badly or get a ban or something. I don't care at all, guys. Yeah, that guy here is really just a fake scumbag and I've tried it for two years, I sold there. And I know exactly what happened, that guy just lies when he wakes up in the morning.

[YOJIMBO]

And I'm waiting for the world champion from England to call me a troll again  😂🤡

[Hokke]

[Cola]

On 1/27/2025 at 6:37 PM, waki180270 said:

It is impossible for me to check all the NBTHK certificates when a seller submits lots on Catawiki, I see hundreds of lots every week....

 

I find this comment a bit dissapointing.

While there are indeed hundreds of items per week on catawiki, there are very very few with any certification at all, let alone NBTHK TH certificates. 

And when certified swords are there, they are recycled every week or so.

 

This is also reflected in the prices, most items are unpapered and somewhere between 500-3000 euros at most. There I completely agree that it's up to the buyer to study the pictures and decide for themselves.

In the worst case scenario the buyer paid 1-2 K too much.

 

BUT when talking about items that are prices in the 10's of thousands of euros, I honestly expected some more accountability. Especially if it's as obvious as a missing stamp on the paper. 

[waki180270]

Dear yojimbo, I don't know who you are and you're the liar. Give me your name so that I can check your so-called sales. I'll be able to find your entire history and check what you've said while I'm still in office. I don't understand why you would have sold items on Catawiki... you keep criticizing him and criticizing me, don't you find it contradictory??? But haters like you who revel in destroying reputations and people are cowards, so I know you'll stay hidden behind your pseudonym. But it doesn't matter, it takes little people like you to give life a special flavour. Despite all your hatred, dear sir, I wish you a good life and be happy in your mediocrity.

[YOJIMBO]

 

[Shugyosha]

Patrice,

You've never had a job in Public Relations have you? When you get to the bottom of a hole, it's generally better to put the spade down and start looking for a ladder.

 

The one thing missing from any of your posts are the words "I'm sorry, I made a mistake," instead there is the constant deflection from the error that you made towards the "haters". If you expect to find any love around here for those involved in selling dodgy items on internet platforms you've badly misjudged your audience. Being charitable, from the "cut and paste" in your last post it looks like you may be using an on-line translator so some of what you are saying might come across differently if you were writing in your first language but your aggressive tone is probably doing more to trash your reputation than the original mistake.

 

Everybody makes them, it is how they are dealt with that makes the difference and you aren't dealing with it very well.

[waki180270]

John vous avez raison, je vais écrire en français. Je ne nie pas qu'il y a eu une erreur de la part du vendeur qui as eu le certificat dans la main et qu'il aurait pu voir qu'il n'était pas conforme. Pour ma part sur photo c'est très compliqué a voir surtout que le papier avait l'air bon. Et je m'excuse des problèmes que cela aurait pu engendrer. Ceci dit ce que je reproche, c'est qu'il aurait été beaucoup plus constructif et plus cordiale, de me dire gentiment "regardez il y a un soucis avec ce sabre". Si un ami qui est souvent sur ce forum ne m'avait rien dit je ne l'aurait jamais su et je n'aurais pas pu le retirer de la vente. Je demande juste aux gens d'être plus bienveillant et moins dans l'accusation et la médisance. Sur ce forum il y a, je le pense sincèrement, des vrais passionnés qui sont la pour partager et échanger des connaissances, alors s'il vous plait messieurs et mesdames arrêtez de taper systématiquement sur les gens dès que vous voyez une erreur. L'erreur est humaine et il n'y a que celui qui ne fait rien qui se trompe jamais. Soyez bienveillant, c'est tout ce que je demande. Encore une fois veuillez m'excuser pour mes erreurs, quand il y en a et comme tout le monde j'en fais, et soyez cordiale et moins agressif.

Vous verrez qu'en étant dans la bienveillance on fait beaucoup mieux les choses.

Patrice

[Lewis B]

And for the 99% here who don't speak French, just so we can all follow along:

 

 

John, you're right, I'll write in French. I don't deny that there was an error on the part of the seller who had the certificate in his hand and that he could have seen that it didn't conform. As far as I'm concerned, it's very difficult to see on a photo, especially as the paper looked fine. I apologise for any problems this may have caused. Having said that, my criticism is that it would have been much more constructive and cordial to tell me nicely ‘look, there's a problem with this sword’. If a friend who is often on this forum hadn't told me, I'd never have known about it and I wouldn't have been able to take it off sale. I'm just asking people to be more benevolent and less accusatory and slanderous. I sincerely believe that there are real enthusiasts on this forum who are here to share and exchange knowledge, so please, ladies and gentlemen, stop systematically bashing people as soon as you see a mistake. To err is human and only the person who does nothing is ever wrong. Be kind, that's all I ask. Once again, please forgive me for my mistakes, when there are some and like everyone else I make them, and be cordial and less aggressive.

You'll see that if you're friendly you'll get things done much better.

Patrice

 

 

I'm curious what you plan to do going forward to avoid these repeated issues. And since you have the ear of the owners of Catawiki, why do they allow repeat offenders, read scammers, to continue listing?

 

 

[Stephen]

2 hours ago, waki180270 said:

John vous avez raison, je vais écrire en français. Je ne nie pas qu'il y a eu une erreur de la part du vendeur qui as eu le certificat dans la main et qu'il aurait pu voir qu'il n'était pas conforme. Pour ma part sur photo c'est très compliqué a voir surtout que le papier avait l'air bon. Et je m'excuse des problèmes que cela aurait pu engendrer. Ceci dit ce que je reproche, c'est qu'il aurait été beaucoup plus constructif et plus cordiale, de me dire gentiment "regardez il y a un soucis avec ce sabre". Si un ami qui est souvent sur ce forum ne m'avait rien dit je ne l'aurait jamais su et je n'aurais pas pu le retirer de la vente. Je demande juste aux gens d'être plus bienveillant et moins dans l'accusation et la médisance. Sur ce forum il y a, je le pense sincèrement, des vrais passionnés qui sont la pour partager et échanger des connaissances, alors s'il vous plait messieurs et mesdames arrêtez de taper systématiquement sur les gens dès que vous voyez une erreur. L'erreur est humaine et il n'y a que celui qui ne fait rien qui se trompe jamais. Soyez bienveillant, c'est tout ce que je demande. Encore une fois veuillez m'excuser pour mes erreurs, quand il y en a et comme tout le monde j'en fais, et soyez cordiale et moins agressif.

Vous verrez qu'en étant dans la bienveillance on fait beaucoup mieux les choses.

Patrice

We post in English here!!!

Thank you for the translation Louis

[Shugyosha]

6 minutes ago, Stephen said:

We post in English here!!!

Thank you for the translation Louis

 

To be fair, it was my suggestion that he post in French. Mea culpa.

[dimitri]

I just discovered this post, I would have sent a message to Patrice if I had seen the post at the time.

I know Patrice well, he is a good person, I have seen his polishing work which is magnificent.

I also bought swords, tsuba from him and am perfectly satisfied with them. This story is unfortunate, but if the certificates start to be falsified it becomes dramatic.

[waki180270]

Lewis it s simple, I ll quit Catawiki soon. and after it will no be my problem. I don't understand why you are sure that the seller is guilty... let s go the investigation before.

[Lewis B]

Patrice, you can read one story here. Judged Gimei, Chinese certification that does not match the blade. Seller in Andorra bought the sword from Japan (sold on Yahoo.jp auctions), stripped it of its nice urushi saya and he replaced it with a cheap, poorly fitting part. Story starts on 2nd page. Buyer paid over 3000 euro for the sword and you can tell from his initial messages he was very excited. As the reality unfolded the whole experience soured the purchase, killed a budding interest in Nihonto, caused stress at home and he ended up donating it to me just to put the sorry experience behind him. Some responsibility for what happened has to be placed at the feet of the 'authenticator', although its the seller who is really to blame and Catawiki condones it.

 

I have seen pics of a Juyo Senjuin Yoshihiro and based on my research, I believe one of my blades is by this smith. I have the Gimei one in the link in my possession and it has nothing in common with a blade from the late Kamakura, early Nanbobkucho eras. IMO it was created to deceive.

 

PS Smart move kicking Catawiki to the curb.

[waki180270]

Unfortunately some sellers try to cover their tracks by tinkering with the sabers... they buy on yahoo Japan or on other sites or in Japan and want to make a big profit... but again I can't check the origin of all the sabers and know if they are gimei or tinkered by the sellers. This engages the seller's responsibility. As long as he doesn't say "made by" but just signs... he doesn't commit to the authenticity of the signature. This is a legal point used a lot in auction rooms. This prevents buyers from turning against the expert or the auctioneer. Personally I only buy from individuals and in Japan from certain merchants. Unlike the others, I negotiate my purchase price with them and I try to sell my sabers at the same price as they sell them. My margin is the negotiation that I would have managed to do. It is smaller than that of other merchants but I sell them regularly and at reasonable prices.

[Jacques]

Don't' trust Patrice Sabbah who is a self trained polisher and a pseudo expert