Marc BROQUIN Posted January 19, 2010 Report Posted January 19, 2010 Hello :D , The previous topic about Japanese Mon pushed me to add my little question . I have an ONIN tsuba with incrustation of this typical Mon : 2 intercrossing circles . After a little search, it appears that KAWACHI-HATAKEYAMA and WAKIZAKA clans had the same . Is there a link between these 2 families ? The other HATAKEYAMA, from MUTSU and NOTO seem not to have the same mon : a circle with to straight horizontal lines inside. Thanks for any info about this mon and family relation . Best to all :D Marc Quote
Marc BROQUIN Posted January 20, 2010 Author Report Posted January 20, 2010 Yes Dirk, It is. Of course the intercrossing circles one. The HATAKEYAMA were given by ASHIKAGA TAKAUJI the YAMASHIRO, KAWACHI, KII, MUTSU and NOTO, because they were allies from the true beginning. But only KAWACHI HAKATEYANA remained with this mon. They were, many of them, Kyoto Kanrei and Shugo of many provinces. So they have been very influent. And it is reasonable, knowing that, to find many ONIN tsuba with their mon But I do not find the link with Wakizaka clan, only that the WAKIZAKA where given by the same TAKAUJI the AWAJI island. I am waiting some other answers and I will put mine on the site. Best Marc Quote
John A Stuart Posted January 20, 2010 Report Posted January 20, 2010 Hi Marc, I have been researching the Hatakeyama a bit for you and can't find evidence of a marriage or alliance between the Hatakeyama and Wakizaka. Of course there were many such marriage alliances, I just couldn't find it. I have an historical timeline for the Kawachi Hatakeyama and some lineage charts that may help your research. 河内畠山主要年表 年 事項 建武4年(1337) 畠山国清紀伊守護に 正平8年・文和2年(1353) 畠山国清伊豆・武蔵守護に 正平14年・延文4年(1359) 畠山国清和泉・河内守護に、計5カ国の守護となる 正平16年・康安元年(1361) 畠山国清失脚 正平21年・貞治5年(1366) 畠山国清の弟義深、摂津西成郡の分郡守護に 同年 畠山義深、斯波高経を攻めその功で越前守護に 天授5年・康暦元年(1379) 畠山基国 越前守護から越中守護に 元中9年・明徳3年(1391) 畠山基国 山城・河内など6カ国の守護に 応永5年(1398) 畠山基国、管領に就任 応永13年(1406) 畠山基国没、将軍義満の命で家督は嫡男満家ではなく二男満則へ、満則河内・紀伊・能登・越中守護に 応永15年(1408) 将軍義満没、畠山満家が河内・紀伊・越中守護になり満則は能登守護に（能登畠山氏) 応永17年(1410) 畠山満家管領就任（～応永19（1412)） 応永28年(1421) 畠山満家管領再任(～永享元(1429)） 永享5年(1433) 畠山満家没、将軍義教の命で家督は嫡男持国ではなく持永へ 嘉吉元年(1433) 嘉吉の変で将軍義教暗殺され、畠山の家督は持国に直される 嘉吉2年(1434) 畠山持国管領就任(～文安2(1445)) 文安5年(1448) 畠山持国は弟持富から庶子義就に家督を変更、これにより家臣は持富派（持富死去後はその子弥三郎派）と義就派の分かれ争う 宝徳元年(1449) 畠山持国管領再任(～享徳元(1452)) 享徳3年(1454) 義就派の遊佐国助ら弥三郎派の神保氏を襲撃 同年 弥三郎派は管領細川勝元の後援を得て持国・義就を襲撃、持国・義就は逃亡 康安元年(1455) 畠山義就が兵を率いて上洛し弥三郎を追放、家督に直る 長禄3年(1459) 弥三郎没、政長が跡を継ぐ 長禄4年(1460) 管領細川勝元の謀略で義就失脚、河内に追放 同年 義就討伐のための軍勢河内へ、義就嶽山城に篭城 寛正4年(1463) 嶽山城陥落、義就は吉野に逃げる 寛正5年(1464) 畠山政長管領に就任 文正元年(1466) 山名持豊のクーデターで政長失脚、畠山の家督は義就に 応仁元年(1467) 畠山政長上御霊林で挙兵、応仁の乱は始まる 文明9年(1477) 畠山義就は京を退去し河内に、応仁の乱終わる 延徳2年(1490) 畠山義就没、基家が継ぐ 明応2年(1493) 将軍義材は基家討伐のために河内に出兵するもその留守に細川政元がクーデター、政長敗死し家督は尚順が継ぐが紀伊に逃げる、畠山の家督は基家へ 明応6年(1497) 畠山尚順紀伊で挙兵し河内に侵攻 明応8年(1499) 畠山基家敗死、義英が継ぐ 永正17年(1512) 畠山義英は尚順・稙長父子に降伏、畠山家の内訌は終わりを告げ家督は稙長に 天文3年(1534) 家臣木沢長政らの下克上で畠山稙長は紀伊に追放、畠山の家督は種長の弟長経に 天文7年(1537) 畠山長経は家臣木沢長政らに追放され、家督は政国に 天文19年(1550) 畠山政国没、家督は高政に 永禄11年(1568) 織田信長河内に侵攻、高政は河内南半国守護に家臣遊佐信教に追放され家督は昭高に 永禄12年(1569) 畠山高政、家臣遊佐信教に追放され家督は昭高に 天正元年(1573) 畠山昭高、家臣遊佐信教に暗 John Quote
John A Stuart Posted January 20, 2010 Report Posted January 20, 2010 The Wakizaka clan ruled Tanshu (Awaji province) which bordered the lands ruled by the Hatakeyama including Kii and Kawachi among others and it isn't without the possibility that a marriage alliance between the families occured. Curious to see what you have discovered Marc. John Quote
Marc BROQUIN Posted January 21, 2010 Author Report Posted January 21, 2010 Hello John, A thousand thanks for your precious research. It will help indeed but perhaps our Japanese friends can give us sone more details precisely on this potential alliance. What I do not understand is : when you are a male and marry, you bring your name and Mon. Or you change your name afterwards and you keep your Mon ? Some thing bizarre, no ? Need more help to get the light. Best to all. Marc Quote
John A Stuart Posted January 21, 2010 Report Posted January 21, 2010 Hi Marc, Much like what happened in the European royal houses, sometimes name changes, marriages and adoptions can obscure lineages. The Hatakeyama family had become extinct with the death of Hatakeyama Shigeyasu. Hojo Tokimasa intending to preserve the line ordered Ashikaga Yoshizumi to marry Shigeyasu's widow who was in fact Tokimasa's daughter. Yoshizumi thus inherited the Hatakeyama domains and preserved the family name which he took. This actually means it was an alliance marriage between the Hojo and Ashikaga and meant that the Hatakeyama were now of the Minamoto bloodline, the Genji of Seiwa. John Quote
Marc BROQUIN Posted January 22, 2010 Author Report Posted January 22, 2010 Hello John :D , Yes I know the complete story more of less . In fact 2 families have weared the name. At first one from Taira descendance and the other from Minamoto descendance. And Takeyama disappeared from political life with the beginning of 17th century. I am screening the Net to get all info and preparing a file with all I can collect, but the file will be in french... Sorry When it will be finished I will send it to you, if you want. :D Best :D Marc Quote
John A Stuart Posted January 22, 2010 Report Posted January 22, 2010 Thanks Marc, I always would enjoy any history that is within my favourite period, the Muromachi, esp. the main characters that caused the Onin war. i only included a little history for our fellow forumites who might be interested. The French is no problem. Did you know we have the second largest francophone city in the world, Montreal, second only to Paris? John Quote
Marc BROQUIN Posted January 25, 2010 Author Report Posted January 25, 2010 Hello, I promised to expose the famous tsuba I spoke about in my first post. It's time to do it. Best to all. Thanks for your help. Marc Quote
Marc BROQUIN Posted January 25, 2010 Author Report Posted January 25, 2010 Hello :D What do you think about the age of this tsuba . Does it date from the Onin war (around 1460/70) or is it later as I think (end of Muromachi) ? I do not think that the other incrustation represents any Mon but only a decoration. What is your idea ? Thanks Regards :D Marc Quote
John A Stuart Posted January 26, 2010 Report Posted January 26, 2010 Marc, I think the mon is more extant and would be hard to identify which family. I think the Hatakeyama used it originally for the whole clan, but, only the Noto branch subsequently. The Wakizaka used it as well as thw Kunishi family who were retainers of the Mori. Here is a pic from my banners page, just for interest. John Quote
Marc BROQUIN Posted January 26, 2010 Author Report Posted January 26, 2010 Hello John :D , Wakizaka and Hatakeyama are the only one havig used this specific mon . It seems KAWACHI HATAKEYAMA continued to use it until... almost 1600 :? . After that they became retainers of other major Daymios. : MUTSU and NOTO HATAKEYAMA used a simple circle with 2 horizontal lines, as far as I discovered on the Web :| . Japanese friends confirmation would be appreciated . I am still working on the family; hope to have finished for end of February . About the tsuba itself, what period do you propose ? Best Marc Quote
John A Stuart Posted January 26, 2010 Report Posted January 26, 2010 I agree with you. later Muromachi post Nambokucho. I come to this conclusion because of the nakagoana and the floral pattern. BTW the Kunishi were involved in the Onin wars under the Mori, note Kunishi Motosuke. John Quote
Bazza Posted January 29, 2010 Report Posted January 29, 2010 I appreciate the main thrust of this thread was the Clan history, but FYI I offer a photo of another Onin tsuba that may be of interest. This comes about by (a) the joy of NMB and expanding one's own knowledge, (b) by buying books, in this instance I took advantage of Craig Harris' 50% sale to buy Torigoye's "Tsuba Kanshoki", a book I have wanted for a long time but as a blade man could never justify the price (Thanks Craig - I also bought the "Yasuchika" book, of which more in a much later post), again a NMB pickup, and © the book arrived this morning and trawling through it (Boy, were the juices flowing!) I noticed the tsuba pictured below and immediately recognised the mon - another tribute to NMB. The caption for the tsuba reads: Ôninzôgan tsuba No sig. Iron: Kiku, plum blossoms & wachigai, brass inlay. Marumimi: C. 8 rin. Age: The end of Middle Muromachi Best regards, BaZZa. Quote
Marc BROQUIN Posted January 30, 2010 Author Report Posted January 30, 2010 Hello, Thank you Bazza for this contribution. Yes it is the same mon but the construction of the tsuba is not the same. What are the dimensions and particularly the thickness ? Onin type tsuba are thin (around 4 mm) compared to other heianjozogan type tsubas. But it is interesting to read : end of middle muromachi for the age. Muromachi begins in 1391 and ends in 1573. I know these dates are subject to alternatives in numerous books. But let's take that as an exemple. As it is formulated, Muromachi has to be divided in three parts. Beginning, middle and End each one of a 60/61 years duration. After calculation, this tsuba should be dated from around 1490 to 1510 (mathematicaly speaking) ; it means some 15 to 35years after ONIN wars. Personaly I would have attributed it to the end of MUROMACHI perhaps even MOMOYAMA. John, what do you think ? Friendly yours Marc Quote
John A Stuart Posted January 30, 2010 Report Posted January 30, 2010 Marc, I wish I was educated enough to determine the period within 30 or so years, but, it does compare favourably with examples of this type tsuba of late middle period Muromachi. John Quote
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