Jacques D. Posted December 10 Report Posted December 10 Nagasa = 60.3 cm Sori = 2.2 cm Motohaba = 3.00 cm Kissaki = 3.2 cm Era, school, smith. a description of the hamon will be a + This sword is famous Quote
lonely panet Posted December 10 Report Posted December 10 ichimonji of some sort?? something bizen or ... Quote
PNSSHOGUN Posted December 10 Report Posted December 10 Kamakura, Yamashiro, Rai Kunitoshi. Midare Choji. Quote
ROKUJURO Posted December 10 Report Posted December 10 Reminds me somewhat of OEI BIZEN TACHI, YASUMITSU. But difficult to guess without HADA and more details. Must have been close to 70 cm long before SURIAGE. Quote
Mark S. Posted December 10 Report Posted December 10 A expert here tells us we can’t tell anything without blade in hand. This is a useless endeavor. 3 1 1 Quote
Jussi Ekholm Posted December 10 Report Posted December 10 I refrain answering due to knowing that exact sword. However I must say that just looking at the hamon I would have been in totally incorrect location but pretty much correct time. 1 Quote
Gakusee Posted December 10 Report Posted December 10 Well, the oshigata does look more Osafune Bizen than the sword actually is - hence the need to know nie vs nioi, utsuri or not, indeed the finesse of the jigane or the slightly more outstanding typical Bizen hada (even though some have very fine hada)…. 1 Quote
Jacques D. Posted December 10 Author Report Posted December 10 4 hours ago, Mark S. said: A expert here tells us we can’t tell anything without blade in hand. This is a useless endeavor. Don't change what I said, I said you can't see anything on photos (proof attached); that said, you can't really appreciate a sword without holding it in your hand. Quote
Jacques D. Posted December 10 Author Report Posted December 10 This sword is a kodachi signed Kunitoshi (Juyo Bunkasai). It is ubu and the hamon is a mix of gunome and midare choji, towards the mono_uchi we have a suguha with some ko gunome. Hada is a tight ko_itame with ji nie and a dan utsuri. As this sword is featured in numerous publications, it was easy to find its maker Quote
lonely panet Posted December 10 Report Posted December 10 Im surprised how difficult the photo and the oshigata make the nakago look. I would have said suriage with daimei Quote
Benjamin Posted December 11 Report Posted December 11 Sorry, I can't refrain Posting a drawing to prove you can't judge on photos ... Posting a photo as anwser... to prove you can't judge on photos... Posting an exception to enact a rule... Not quoting any reference... We are on the pinnacle of scientific approach there! Not very serious... 4 1 Quote
Rivkin Posted December 11 Report Posted December 11 13 hours ago, Benjamin said: Sorry, I can't refrain Posting a drawing to prove you can't judge on photos ... Posting a photo as anwser... to prove you can't judge on photos... Posting an exception to enact a rule... Not quoting any reference... We are on the pinnacle of scientific approach there! Not very serious... 95% of "serious" nihonto crowd 70 and older believe "you should not photograph a blade". Its a waste time and a sign of being unprofessional. One is supposed instead to hold it and "read" it by reciting out loud what you see. Accordingly you kantei by "reading" the blade and then comparing the description to texts. This allows one to study potentially without ever seeing a real nihonto, you just go through oshigata and textbook descriptions. First problem, you visit different societies and people in Japan with the same blade and you realize the terminology changes considerably. Its like martial art, you have a dojo, a sensei, and he knows how to do things. Second, a single word "itame" covers about 30-40 very different hada. Third, oshigata and textbooks cover only the "classics", i.e. how Kunitoshi is supposed to look like, not how it can look like in real life. Often studying sayagaki and "papers" from 1900+ generation it feels many back then studied a lot of oshigata and very few actual blades. 1 1 Quote
Jacques D. Posted December 11 Author Report Posted December 11 4 hours ago, Benjamin said: Sorry, I can't refrain Posting a drawing to prove you can't judge on photos ... Posting a photo as anwser... to prove you can't judge on photos... Posting an exception to enact a rule... Not quoting any reference... We are on the pinnacle of scientific approach there! Not very serious... Provide me a photo where you can see hada, hamon anf hataraki in details... after thatr you can speak For your instruction, an oshigata is like an ID card for a sword - it's made to scale 1 and NBTHK works a lot with oshigata, especially during shinsa. Quote
Benjamin Posted December 11 Report Posted December 11 1 hour ago, Rivkin said: 95% of "serious" nihonto 70 and older believe "you should not photograph a blade". Its a waste time and a sign of being unprofessional. One is supposed instead to hold it and "read" it by reciting out loud what you see. Accordingly you kantei by "reading" the blade and then comparing the description to texts. This allows one to study potentially without ever seeing a real nihonto, you just go through oshigata and textbook descriptions. First problem, you visit different societies and people in Japan with the same blade and you realize the terminology changes considerably. Its like martial art, you have a dojo, a sensei, and he knows how to do things. Second, a single word "itame" covers about 30-40 very different hada. Third, oshigata and textbooks cover only the "classics", i.e. how Kunitoshi is supposed to look like, not how it can look like in real life. Often studying sayagaki and "papers" from 1900+ generation it feels many back then studied a lot of oshigata and very few actual blades. That's very informative Kirill, thank you very much, I would add a fourth problem : improvement of photographic material : of course, having it in hand will always add somethings, but you can't say it's impossible to assess a sword on photos, some people here do it frequently. That makes me think that Japanese way of appreciating things and developing constantly disappoint me (in a good manner), we should not confound occidental scientific approach with Japanese cultural and artisanal approach. Not saying one is better than the other of course. 41 minutes ago, Jacques D. said: Provide me a photo where you can see hada, hamon anf hataraki in details... after thatr you can speak For your instruction, an oshigata is like an ID card for a sword - it's made to scale 1 and NBTHK works a lot with oshigata, especially during shinsa. Sorry to not waiting your authorization to speak. For the photos : buy eyes and you'll find it by yourself! and buy ears also, you could listen to people asking you to act in a less disrespectful manner. 2 Quote
Matsunoki Posted December 11 Report Posted December 11 55 minutes ago, Jacques D. said: after thatr you can speak No Jacques, we can speak when the hell we like. Given your obvious disdain for everyone else on this incredibly helpful forum I do wonder why you bother to stay on here let alone waste your valuable time with us. You talk of needing to see hada, hataraki etc…..so, could we see hada in your Kantei? Would you kantei a blade without knowing/seeing hada? Could we see nie, nioi etc? Could we see the size and structure of the nie, could we see the colour of the steel. Could we see the patina on the nakago? No, I didn’t think so. Pointless. 1 3 2 Quote
CSM101 Posted December 11 Report Posted December 11 Kantei is puzzle. And nothing more. It should teach you something even if the teacher is not very likeable. The lower half reminded me of Ko Osafune the upper half of Yamashiro. And then you start to search. Luckily I have a digital library. Token Bijutsu 493. 1 2 Quote
Jacques D. Posted December 11 Author Report Posted December 11 6 hours ago, CSM101 said: It doesnt' show the nioiguchi only the hadori so we cannot see if the nioiguchi is nioi or nie deki, if it's bright or no, if it's tight or no. About the hada we don't know it there is nie or chikei 1 Quote
Jacques D. Posted December 11 Author Report Posted December 11 Quote Sorry to not waiting your authorization to speak. For the photos : buy eyes and you'll find it by yourself! and buy ears also, you could listen to people asking you to act in a less disrespectful manner. One of my university professors used to say: “Don't listen to those who talk, listen to those who demonstrate”. You can say whatever you like, as long as you don't provide a clear, substantiated demonstration, it will only be your opinion, and Madame Michu's will be just as valid. Quote
Jacques D. Posted December 11 Author Report Posted December 11 4 hours ago, CSM101 said: Kantei is puzzle. And nothing more. It should teach you something even if the teacher is not very likeable. The lower half reminded me of Ko Osafune the upper half of Yamashiro. And then you start to search. Luckily I have a digital library. Token Bijutsu 493. In principle, a kantei is practised without opening a book; it's an exercise in memory. I'll rarely make a mistake with a Rai because it's a school I know particularly well, but I wouldn't say the same about the Nio school, for example, which I know very little about because I've only had the opportunity to study one, which is very, very inadequate. 2 Quote
CSM101 Posted December 11 Report Posted December 11 Just because you own "Nihon-to- The rise and prosperity of masterful Rai school in Kyoto" you can call yourself an expert. Quote
Jacques D. Posted December 11 Author Report Posted December 11 2 hours ago, CSM101 said: Just because you own "Nihon-to- The rise and prosperity of masterful Rai school in Kyoto" you can call yourself an expert. I've held more than thirty swords from this school, so that's a good base. and I never said I was an expert, the real experts are Japanese... Quote
PNSSHOGUN Posted December 11 Report Posted December 11 His manner may be unpleasant, but who else triggers this much interesting discussion? Without such firebrands as Jacques, we could quickly revert to a forum extolling the virtues of mumei suriage shinto wakizashi and Chinese fakes..... 3 Quote
KungFooey Posted December 11 Report Posted December 11 And he tells darn good jokes in the izakiya! 😁 Quote
Tcat Posted December 11 Report Posted December 11 I really appreciate that 'old hands' still visit and contribute to this forum - without which, as others have alluded to, the place would devolve into a rather tiresome and repetitive discussion of fundamentals and merrygorounds of the blind leading the blind. There is too much to learn and too many idiots eager to speak without knowing anything. 2 Quote
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