My first attempt at buying an older sword.

[2devnul]

20 minutes ago, Crusader22 said:

The lighting greatly exaggerated these markings in this photo.

It isn't about scratches. Look on legit Nakago, where patina ends and Hamachi starts. My link as a example. On your sword (based on the pics) it looks odd. Like twice the distance vs what it should be. 

 

It doesn't even matter if sword is gimei. That nakago looks really bad. 

 

Of course I can be totally wrong (just highlighting this, so hopefully I won't be called hater again ... Dee... )

[GeorgeLuucas]

Hi Jeff, thank you for all the photos. I think many of us are a little confused too. I'm inclined to agree with @2devnul on this one. I think it looks real, but really messed with... hard to say. 

The nakago and hamachi + munemachi are what concerns me too. They have the appearance of being altered by an untrained craftsman (if its not a forgery). If you bought it on eBay, was the seller "komonjo"? He's notorious for selling stuff similar to this. If he's the seller; that would explain a lot. 

To my novice eye, it looks like an 'untrained someone' moved the hamachi and munemachi up, giving the nakago and it's profile a wrong look. I also suspect the nakago has some artificial patination to look older. 

Tough one, and sorry for all the bad news... For what it's worth, I think most of us on this board have been burned at least once; I know I have. 
Just my two cents, and I could be wrong too. 

All the best,
-Sam

 

[Franco D]

1 hour ago, Crusader22 said:

When might this have been faked? (For instance, in the 1900's as a display item?) If so, why sign it?

 

What matters going forward is to learn how to recognize what makes a "good sword" a good sword. 

In that way when you see a bad sword, like the Japanese say, it will hurt your eyes. 

The Japanese recommend studying the best swords one can possibly find to study. 

 

A note: good swords even when out of polish and rusted over offer clues to sharp eyes that something worth investigating further may be hiding. Bad swords don't. 

 

1 hour ago, Crusader22 said:

Is the mei a good, or a poor forgery? Was a specific period or style of engraved mei attempted? If so, why?

 

Are you planning on being a mei collector or a nihonto collector?   

 

 

To some nihonto collecting is a hobby. To others nihonto collecting is a discipline. Regardless of which path one takes kantei is the key to nihonto appreciation. There are many challenges to overcome. There will be many bumps in the road to navigate. There will be difficult lessons to learn. There will be disappointment. It's never easy! Teachers, mentors, club support, and a library are essential and invaluable. 

 

 

 

 

[Crusader22]

Ok, thank you all for sharing your knowledge and opinions, I do appreciate it.

 

Jeff

[Rivkin]

It is out of polish, with a very crudely moved hamachi, married with modern repro tsuba.

However, I personally don't see glaring mistakes which Chinese typically make. The signature is chiseled faintly, in Japanese rather than Continental calligraphy, the nakago has decent patina.

Sugata is a bit strange, being completely straight it is not a good match for the nakago, but such things do happen and most elements are executed ok-ish. Also I suspect its not a particular expensive smartphone placed closer to the nakago, it tries to auto-correct for distortions in optics (the cheaper the optics the more it distorts) and therefore it might be straightening the blade.

The work itself is periodic gunome with even togari-choji appearing in some "gunome" elements. This is something one sees on showato now and then, on Chinese fakes, but it also appears on Bizen and Bizen like swords from the end of Muromachi.

 

Overall I would be inclined to think its Bizen Yasumitsu from 1560s. Its a lower grade sword in poor condition, but I don't think its a crime.

[Crusader22]

5 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

It is out of polish, with a very crudely moved hamachi, married with modern repro tsuba.

However, I personally don't see glaring mistakes which Chinese typically make. The signature is chiseled faintly, in Japanese rather than Continental calligraphy, the nakago has decent patina.

Sugata is a bit strange, being completely straight it is not a good match for the nakago, but such things do happen and most elements are executed ok-ish. Also I suspect its not a particular expensive smartphone placed closer to the nakago, it tries to auto-correct for distortions in optics (the cheaper the optics the more it distorts) and therefore it might be straightening the blade.

The work itself is periodic gunome with even togari-choji appearing in some "gunome" elements. This is something one sees on showato now and then, on Chinese fakes, but it also appears on Bizen and Bizen like swords from the end of Muromachi.

 

Overall I would be inclined to think its Bizen Yasumitsu from 1560s. Its a lower grade sword in poor condition, but I don't think its a crime.

Thanks, thats exactly in line with my (lowered) expectations! I mean that in a good way.

 

And, I forgot to answer, but no, nobody named "komonjo".

 

Yes, ebay, but ~280/98% feedback, and almost all swords, I decided to try with my limited knowledge. All on me, though.

 

I figured if 280 people didn't get hosed it was likely I wouldn't, certainly some of his sword sales would be "known" in that way if he were a fraudster. I looked around but saw nothing so far.

 

Anyway, I do still like it, and despite my modest means, (that the $ amount I paid is likely high) I am ok with the whole thing.

 

In my mind, it is a Japanese low level smith, altered blade, and non original koshirae, and wear and condition issues., but not new, the older, the better, if someday I get more info.

 

Maybe Chinese junk, too. Oh, well. Lesson learned. Let it be a cautionary tale.

 

Jeff

[moriarty]

42 minutes ago, Crusader22 said:

Thanks, thats exactly in line with my (lowered) expectations! I mean that in a good way.

 

And, I forgot to answer, but no, nobody named "komonjo".

 

Yes, ebay, but ~280/98% feedback, and almost all swords, I decided to try with my limited knowledge. All on me, though.

 

I figured if 280 people didn't get hosed it was likely I wouldn't, certainly some of his sword sales would be "known" in that way if he were a fraudster. I looked around but saw nothing so far.

 

Anyway, I do still like it, and despite my modest means, (that the $ amount I paid is likely high) I am ok with the whole thing.

 

In my mind, it is a Japanese low level smith, altered blade, and non original koshirae, and wear and condition issues., but not new, the older, the better, if someday I get more info.

 

Maybe Chinese junk, too. Oh, well. Lesson learned. Let it be a cautionary tale.

 

Jeff

Greetings Jeff, 

 

Happens to the best of us, glad you can take it as a lesson. As for eBay sword sellers, unless they're connected in some way to a reputable store or a member of this forum, they're ignorant at best and deceitful at worst.

You certainly fared better than my first purchase, poor thing was flaunting all its core steel to the world!