Nagato-Sa naginata-naoshi ?

[MyaN]

Hello, 

 

For a bit of context, I'm studying a naginata naoshi wakizashi. On the description of the wakizashi written in 1981, we can read : "kanmuri otoshi shape, unsigned, one mekugi-ana, 16th century. Iron guard with a character and a horse. Nagato ? " That's why I would want to know more about Nagato-Sa. Was previously owned by a french anthropologist.

 

I was wondering about the Nagato-Sa school features as I have trouble finding any good online ressource on it. I was mainly wondering two things : 

- do the nagato-sa smiths also forged naginata ? I saw they mainly forged tanto

- were they still active in the 16th century ? I saw some smiths related to nagato-sa school working in the 16th century but I'm unsure about this source.

 

Considering this one is probably a naginata naoshi, would it be possible for the blade to be older ? I'm quite unsure about the datation affiliated to this wakizashi. 

 

I found this genealogy online following this URL : 

https://www.sho-shin.com/sanyo24.htm 

 

 

You'll find two pics of the blade, omote and ura. I'm curious about your thoughts on it !

 

Motokasane : 4.5 mm 

Motohaba : 2.6 cm

Sori : 8 mm 

At its thinest, kasane is between 0.5 and 1 cm.

Mihaba at its largest in the second part of the blade, just before kissaki is also 2.6 cm

[ROKUJURO]

It does not look like NAGINATA to me.

[Brian]

Nagamaki

[Mushin]

As I am a huge history buff, I thought some historical background that might help at least with how the school came about.  

Chikuzen Province, the home of Chikuzen Samonji, a.k.a. O-Sa, or the great Sa, was located on the northern coast of Kyushu. It was the primary landing point for the Mongol forces during their failed invasion attempts, and afterwards became the focus of Japan’s defensive preparations against future Mongol incursions.

To this end, the military government in Kamakura established the Chinzei Tandai to oversee and manage military preparations and defenses in Kyushu. The Chinzei Tandai quickly became the central authority for organizing local samurai forces, maintaining fortifications, and ensuring readiness across Kyushu and nearby islands. Walls were built and reinforced. Forces drilled. The area was bristling with warriors ready for the next wave of foreign invaders.  This might explain why Sa left Sagami Province where he was supposedly studying with Masamune to set up shop in Ikihama in Chikuzen, and why he had so many students, not least his son and most talented disciple, Sano Yasuyoshi. 

After Kamakura fell in 1333, and the Nanbokucho started three years later, pitting two rival imperial courts against each other, fears of new invasions slowly began to fade.  New internal conflicts brought promises of awards of new lands and titles. The Mongol threat became a memory. At the same time, the realignment of forces during the Nanbokucho created new internal power struggles in southern and western Japan. Those struggles in turn created new demands for sword smiths, and over time some of those smiths started migrating to meet the demand.

One of those was Sano Yasuyoshi, O-Sa’s son, who started to work in nearby Aki before relocating to Nagato where he founded the Nagato Sa School, continuing the Sa tradition while incorporating regional influences. Other’s followed suit and overtime the Sa School began to loose its focus as it moved out of its home province. Morihiro is said to have left for Hizen after O-Sa’s death and along with his disciple, Moriyoshi, founded the Hirado Sa school. Another student of some renown, Sano Sadayuki, left Chikuzen and moved across the straights, settling in Aki in the mid-1300s, founding what became known as the Oishi Sa school. (According to some sources, Sadayuki might have later relocated to Hizen and joined the Hirado school.)

Some of these schools – which have always been considered minor branches of the Sa tradition – continued into the Muromachi but eventually died out or merged with other schools by the time the Onin War destroyed Kyoto and sent a waves of refugee Yamashiro smiths to Kyushu.

While early work from these three "schools" maintained lots of the Soshu influence that Sa brought to Kyushu, over time these faded and later Sa schools showed less nie and hataraki, and the clarity of the steel was not as great in the mainline Sue-Sa schools. Eventually, the work would take on more characteristics of trends that emerged in the Oei period. They would have, of course, forged all manner of blades - long and short, naginata and tanto - to meet demands, but as with so many other schools, smaller blades are most commonly what we see today.

 

[Rivkin]

It looks a bit awkward but in theory can be earlier than that...

Nagato/Oishi Sa is a rare attribution, Hirado does come up now and then. Sa with unusual features...

[reinhard]

Hi Mya,

 

The pictures of the blade you posted are definitely depicting a naginata shortened to be used as a wakizashi.

BTW The term "nagamaki", is only refering to a mounting style of naginata.

Excellent naginata were made by top-ranking smiths at all times.

Shortening them later in Edo-period to use them as katana or wakizashi was common practice.

 

As far as your particular example is concerned:

Telling on the basis of your pictures, attribution is not possible.

Nagato-Sa or not: It is impossible to tell.

Without a mei and without seeing the blade in high-res (with the nakago) it is impossible to tell where and when the blade was made.

It must be seen in hand by an experienced and knowledgeable specialist.

 

You should see its attribution from 1981 critically.

Times, and knowledge, have changed since.

 

reinhard

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MyaN]

@ROKUJURO I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, I know it is not a naginata. I asked about naginata, because I think this wakizashi is a naginata naoshi  Thanks for your reply and clarification ! 

[MyaN]

Great thanks for these historical insights @Mushin, it's fascinating ! 

[MyaN]

Thnaks for your answer @Rivkin, I know that attribution is almost impossible given only two pics without the nakago. I'll take this attribution with great care, and probably discard it until further observation  I'll send you the pics of the nakago when I have it ! 

Also, forgot to mention that all of the blade's surface is oxydized and we can't see hada, jigane or hamon. I can share more close ups pics of the blade tho, if it helps. 

The wakizashi is fully mounted (only kashira is missing), with a aogai nashiji saya and three copper alloy (probably) semegane, kurigata and kozuka bitsu. So, it can't be a nagamaki,maybe a nagamaki-naoshi tho ? Thank you @Brian for your suggestion ! It's my fault for not posting full pic.

 

Here are some more pics

 

[MyaN]

Thank you very much @reinhard

I think I saw in this very forum that the shortening of naginata during the Edo period was partially due to the regulation of the rights to carry weapons of more than 3 shaku (which was reserved for military officials). Did I understand this correctly ? Or is it also because as time went by, naginata jutsu became more of a feminine jutsu ? Or that it was allowed to carry a ko-wakizashi even if not a part of the bushi ? Maybe a bit of all these reasons ? 

 

Also, I saw a really interesting vid online about a Japanese sword specialist who distinguished between a naginata naoshi and a nagamaki naoshi. Is there a way of making a clear distinction or is it with great experience and knowledge that you can achieve this ? 

 

As you said, I will take this attribution with a grain of salt. I don't even know who wrote this and if they ever were familiar with nihonto. 

As to when the original naginata blade was made, I might be really wrong (pls tell me if I am haha), but I think  read somewhere that depending on the kasane, it could be determined whether the naginata was intended to be wielded by a man (which would hint an earlier forging) or if it was meant for a woman (smaller kasane, smaller overall weight). 

 

As I said, will post the nakago pictures when I take them, but it might be a while from now. 

[Jussi Ekholm]

There were some great posts there above relating history and terminology. Naginata are one of my greatest interests and I have gathered a lot of data on them.

 

As said above Nagato-Sa is very rare attribution, and to this date I have not found a naginata or naoshi that would be made or attributed to Nagato-Sa smiths or school. I believe I only have 1 surviving mumei naginata from entire Sa school, and it is mumei with smith attribution. For naoshi blades there are some with attribution towards specifics smiths but most common attribution for naoshi of Sa school is just Sue-Sa 末左 (Late Sa) (however the use of Sue-Sa can differ). Naginata-naoshi attributions tend to often bit bit grouped up, some schools get naoshi attributed towards them much easier.

 

There are wonderful historical naginata surviving at various shrines in Japan as well as some other museums etc. I have been focusing my travels to be able to see several of them. There is actually a lot of variance in naginata throughout the historical periods, as well even within the period. For example during the same time period you can find smaller petite naginata as well as massive monster sized naginata. The size of blade also affected on the shaft length however unfortunately I am not a martial artist so I cannot say anything deep in that field. There is also a lot of variance in the blade shape, I believe this is what is often seen when discussing nagamaki-naoshi vs. naginata-naoshi. I currently always use the term naginata-naoshi for the blade. Still I understand the the wide swordlike naginata blades with very small curvature are referred as nagamaki-naoshi by some. Here is an example of various long naoshi with very swordlike blades from a presentation I held some time ago.

 

 

I am not good with gender politics but I would assume for old pre-Edo naginata I wouldn't think stuff like that, just that they were battlefield weapons. I don't see genders being an issue at all. I would believe women who used and practiced naginata would have had strength to wield one without any issues. I think only some of the most massive Kamakura,Nanbokuchō and Muromachi period monster naginata would have been too massive for average strength person (even men included). I am aware of few naginata that have provenance to various Princesses in Japan. I actually saw one of them in 2023, the blade is actually decent sized naginata 51,5 cm blade and 57,0 cm nakago and it is attributed to Middle Kamakura smith Bizen Saburō Kunimune.

 

Naginata in general were quite useless during Edo period as they were in my eyes battlefield weapons. Similar to ōdachi they had no place in peaceful Edo period. We are lucky some of them have survived in shrines and other places to this day.

[reinhard]

Naginata-naoshi blades are highly underrated in present day sword-business.

It used to be different in the "old days".

Rich and powerful daimyo and even the shogun himself were aware of the supreme quality of some of the old naginata and had them shortened to wear them as katana.

If you can't afford buying a tachi by one of the top-rated smiths of the Kamakura-period, you might be able to afford a naginata-naoshi blade by one of those masters.

You will be greatly rewarded owning and studiying the craftsmanship of a great master for a price much lower than that of a "regular" tachi.

 

Off the battlefield Japanese women were trained to defend themselves, their homes and their children, during the absence of their husbands.

Naginata was their weapon of choice.

Being only an amateur historian, I imagine naginata's size and proportions were chosen to fit the lady's strenght and her personal preferences.

 

reinhard

[O koumori]

Here is a Nagato Sa tachi from Oei period for reference.

Dan K

[Mushin]

Also for reference: Late Nanbokucho Sue Sa naginata naioshi with rare gakumei of Chikushu ju Yukiyoshi (son of Sa Hiroyuki) with TokuHo papers.

[Jacques D.]

I may be wrong, but I don't see how this wakizashi could be a naginata naoshi; I see a simple shobu-zukuri wakizashi with a high shinogi

.

[sabiji]

But take a look at the Sugata! Certainly, apart from the fact that the shape is completely messed up as it is now, it looks completely unbalanced.
MyanN himself writes that the mihaba is identical at the base and just before the fukura. Even the shinogiji does not narrow towards the kissaki, it even looks slightly wider. I can't recognise any fumbari, the thing has a pronounced sakizori and the fukura isn't right at all... You won't find such effects on a simple, ground-down shobu. Naoshi, pretty sure.

But that doesn't make this blade any better...

 

 

[reinhard]

It would be helpful to see both sides of the entire blade, i.e. with the nakago, in hi-res.

What we are doing here is highly speculative and in not targeting.

 

What I can tell for sure is that shobu-tsukuri is no option.

Shobu-tsukuri is a sugata where the shinogi ends precisely at the very tip of the blade.

This is not case here.

 

reinhard

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rivkin]

Its most likely naginata, but its not clear how much it lost, so it can be late Nanbokucho, early Muromachi, if severely reshaped it can be late Muromachi.

Most likely (very little which is seen and taking into account someone who knows words Nagato Sa thought it is one) the hamon will be midare-gunome-sort-of-ish... which can be Mino, can be sue Sa, can be even atypical Bizen - taking in mind its in a very poor polish. There is a slight chance with better pictures there will be something warranting something more specific.

[Jacques D.]

20 hours ago, reinhard said:

 

 

What I can tell for sure is that shobu-tsukuri is no option.

Shobu-tsukuri is a sugata where the shinogi ends precisely at the very tip of the blade.

This is not case here.

 

reinhard

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yep 

 

https://ginza.choshu.../001/16_morokage.php