My second Wakizashi

[marivo]

Hello, just bought my second Wakizashi. Already got informed  on the translation sectie its a Gimei and Suriage. But thats all. I like to know some more about this item. Mayby somebody can give it to me??

https://myalbum.com/...4b-beb9-5e426a8729b5

[Jacques D.]

The only thing I can say is that this sword is dead.

[ChrisW]

How is it dead Jacques? It is certainly tired and overpolished, but I don't see any apparent fatal flaws. I suppose unless you count core steel as fatal.

[Matsunoki]

8 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

The only thing I can say is that this sword is dead

Another amazingly unhelpful contribution from someone who lectures  us ad nauseam about not judging blades from images. 

[KungFooey]

3 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

Another amazingly unhelpful contribution from someone who lectures  us ad nauseam about not judging blades from images. 

Every forum I've ever joined has one grumpy old grandpappy type who says 'bar humbug' to everyone just to get a rise. 😂

[lonely panet]

if you cut jacques a break, and actually look with your eyes.

 

you will find this blade is dead,  there are more them 10 things that raise serious issues.  stop judging the poster and start studying the sword 

 

[marivo]

I,m an entry level collector, have 1 Nihonto Waki and 3 Gunto's. I know this isn't a $1000 blade, just want to know the age  and some blade teminology.

Thats all, my grandma is also dead but I still love her...Thought this was a forum for all Japanese sword collectors, not only for connoisseurs.

Thanks...

[Matsunoki]

1 hour ago, lonely panet said:

if you cut jacques a break, and actually look with your eyes.

I looked. I saw the issues……but I thought we were trying to encourage constructive learning especially for those less experienced? Please point out the FATAL FLAW. 

…..and don’t bother trying to tell me what to do.

[Jacques D.]

When I say a sword is “dead”, I mean there's not much left to see. The hada has disappeared, while the hamon has become weak and perhaps even invisible in some places. I'll never buy a sword in this condition, even at a derisory price, but I certainly don't have the same approach to Nihontö as many others and i'm sorry if i study it very seriously.... 

[Shugyosha]

5 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

, I mean there's not much left to see. The hada has disappeared.... 

So very much like the Rai hada you find so appealing? 🤣

 

Jacques, it really wouldn’t hurt you to offer something constructive. Many other board members take their study seriously but manage to do so without your attitude. If you can’t say anything good, say nothing. 

[lonely panet]

false hope and helpfull words, when cpr isnt working is just wasted time.  dont waste a new begginers time with false hope a felpfull kind words. 

 

"end of life" for this item.  learn from this and move on.  

 

there are cheaper but just as furfilling areas in the Japanese arms area that are more affordable levels if that tikles your toes

[Matsunoki]

51 minutes ago, lonely panet said:

false hope and helpfull words

I don’t see anyone giving false hope or helpful words but neither did   I see anyone giving helpful constructive comments or advice until Jacques felt obliged to explain himself.

 

Better to try and explain what a “tired” blade is and why this looks like a very tired blade which to his credit Jacques has tried to do in his second effort although again he cannot resist attempting to assert  his superiority (which is pretty pathetic and unhelpful against a beginner who is here asking for help)

 

So yes, the blade has large areas of forging flaws and core steel showing. Yes the polish is not good with a heavy Hadori finish probably applied to hide or enhance a hamon that has been degraded by many polishes. 

So is a blade like this a useful learning piece?…..of course it is. Ivo now sees first hand with his own eyes some of the assorted issues that occur to greater or lesser extents on many blades. His eye will be greatly improved. 

 

…..and the best lesson and one that we all remember is the one we learned the hard way.

 

We all started somewhere.

[Alex A]

Edit, cant be bothered getting into another pointless debate.

 

 

[marivo]

Thanx for the response, I think, but for me its a learning curve. Can somebody give me a estimation of its age????

[Matsunoki]

Well, what can we see in your images? (An image of the whole blade without habaki would help)

The blade has obviously been polished many times and is a shadow of its former self.

The kasane (thickness) of the nakago is far greater than that of the blade.

The hada is not really discernible but we can see a lot of assorted forging flaws and openings.

 All the above suggests it’s an old blade that was perhaps not of the greatest quality to begin with. This in turn might suggest Koto, maybe late Muromachi….a time when many swords were hastily made.

Hopefully others will offer opinions but the problem created by some members who post on here…..their attitude deters others from “having a go”.

..just an opinion……possibly wrong🙂

[GeorgeLuucas]

Hi @marivo, welcome to the forum. I saw your posts over on Reddit about this item. 
 

My guess would also be late muromachi, maybe. Just my novice collector guess though. 
 

Don’t be discouraged. This forum has members with the highest of standards. Which is actually a good thing, but it can be disheartening to hear their observations on our beginner and lower end items. We all strive to be connoisseurs, learn, and have the best swords we can manage. 
 

For what it’s worth, the age of a sword is generally decided based on its general shape (sugata). So an image of the whole sword profile without any of its fittings helps people roughly date the item. It looks like your sword might have been shortened (suriage) at some point in its life, making the age of it difficult to surmise. 
 

One thing you can learn a lot from your swords is how to properly measure, store, and care for them. Also general handling and sword etiquette. Avoid using Uchiko powder for now.

https://www.Japanese...ndex.com/measure.htm
 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/faq/question/3-how-to-oil-and-maintain-nihonto/

 

https://swordsofjapa...ary/nbthk-etiquette/

 

Always happy to have a constructive conversation about any sword in any condition. 

Best of luck, 

-Sam

[Jacques D.]

5 hours ago, Shugyosha said:

So very much like the Rai hada you find so appealing? 🤣

 

Jacques, it really wouldn’t hurt you to offer something constructive. Many other board members take their study seriously but manage to do so without your attitude. If you can’t say anything good, say nothing. 

Learn what is Ray hada and after that come to me...

 

Would you buy a painting with half the paint missing? I wouldn't.

[Matsunoki]

12 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

Would you buy a painting with half the paint missing? I wouldn't.

If it was an authentic but knackered Van Gogh, David Hockney, Monet, da Vinci, Kooning etc in a shop for €500 ……you’d leave it?

 

You wouldn’t buy a tired but authentic Masamune….Kiyomaro etc  in similar circumstances?…...unrecognised sleeping in an antique shop?

[Mark S.]

6 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

I'll never buy a sword in this condition, even at a derisory price, but I certainly don't have the same approach to Nihontö as many others and i'm sorry if i study it very seriously.... 

 

We’re all very proud of you…

[CSM101]

A Rai Kunimitsu without Rai hada. Unfortunately not for sale because of KOKUHO. Rai blades with Rai hada are bijutsuhin.

[marivo]

1 hour ago, Matsunoki said:

Well, what can we see in your images? (An image of the whole blade without habaki would help)

The blade has obviously been polished many times and is a shadow of its former self.

The kasane (thickness) of the nakago is far greater than that of the blade.

The hada is not really discernible but we can see a lot of assorted forging flaws and openings.

 All the above suggests it’s an old blade that was perhaps not of the greatest quality to begin with. This in turn might suggest Koto, maybe late Muromachi….a time when many swords were hastily made.

Hopefully others will offer opinions but the problem created by some members who post on here…..their attitude deters others from “having a go”.

..just an opinion……possibly wrong🙂

Thanks for your time, here a picture off the blade

[Alex A]

Hi Ivo, you have not provided any blade measurements, as far as i can see.

 

Just looking at your last picture, just wondering if it was once a katana, as looks a bit stout.

 

Also, in one of your pics. Hard to see but is that a possible kirikomi in the nakago ? 

[Lewis B]

Certainly the sugata has that feel. Much longer blade substantially shortened. Battle damaged and repair is a good reason for its present state. 

[Alex A]

Maybe a shortened Momoyama sword, longish kissaki.

 

Some more reading Ivo, plenty on the internet.

Changes in the Shape of the Japanese Sword | Japan Forward

[Matsunoki]

If we look at the kasane of the blade compared to nakago it looks as if there is a very substantial difference even allowing for optical distortions  (see below). That would suggest that if the blade was shortened it was done quite some time ago and was then followed by many polishes to create such  a difference. That makes you think/wonder if  it isn’t shortened but is in fact ubu or maybe just re-worked.  Also with suriage would we not have stronger machi…..but there is virtually no hamachi…..again….ubu?…..or shortened a long time ago

 

Also the nakago patina is very consistent

 

But then we look at the hamon at the machi and it appears to flow into the nakago suggesting suriage….but of course that could just be an effect of polishing. And then there is that lower mekugi ana to contend with.

 

Im wondering if it’s even older than we think…..and maybe it’s tired condition supports that?

 

 

Edit…..visibly very high shinogi in the nakago. Is that Yamato den? I’m not too hot on Gokaden🙂

 

 

 

[Alex A]

Hi colin, if it was a Katana shortened to a wak back at the end of the 16th century, plenty of time to see many polishes. Its an hard time.

 

Did see masame when i was looking earlier.

 

Nakago done very crudely. 

 

Just putting ideas forward.

 

Not sure about anything though.

 

 

[Matsunoki]

3 minutes ago, Alex A said:

Just putting ideas forward.

 

Not sure about anything though.

Me to. Interesting when something isn’t quite as obvious as it first appears. 
That really high nakago shinogi makes me think. Also it looks like it’s  got a deep kasane.

Not that my opinion counts for much🙂 

[marivo]

1 hour ago, Alex A said:

Hi Ivo, you have not provided any blade measurements, as far as i can see.

 

Just looking at your last picture, just wondering if it was once a katana, as looks a bit stout.

 

Also, in one of your pics. Hard to see but is that a possible kirikomi in the nakago ? 

Its 47.3 cm, thanks for your time

[Shugyosha]

3 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

Learn what is Ray hada and after that come to me...

 

Would you buy a painting with half the paint missing? I wouldn't.

Who’s Ray?

[Jacques D.]

2 hours ago, Mark S. said:

We’re all very proud of you…

Yes, I'm proud to take things seriously. Nihontö requires a lot of work for people to understand and appreciate all it has to offer. Collector and connoisseur are not synonymous. 
By way of example, describe to me how to tell the difference between a ko-itame and a tight ko-itame. 

 

I've never been a hypocritical false modesty, I know what I'm worth and above all I know that I don't know a lot of things, you'll never see me talk about tsuba or other fushi-kashira because my knowledge of this subject is largely insufficient to be credible (Some people should think about that,whatever the subject).