Gunto blades - what was their standard shape?

[Yukihiro]

As I looked at two of my gunto side by side, I noticed that the one that is supposed to be a gendaito has a somewhat stouter and shorter blade with a deeper sori whereas the Seki-stamped gunto is not as thick and has a straighter blade - do you know whether there was a standard gunto shape as opposed to less conventional blades?

 

The Masatsugu sword is on its way to the polisher's at the moment, so it will be months before I see it again. Hopefully the polish will live up to my expectations!

[Jcstroud]

On page3 of Who was Toyosuke ?which is now on  page17 of the military swords  you will find some of your answers they were graciously provided  by 

Kiipu ,Bruce Pennington

And others ..very informative.

[Bruce Pennington]

I am searching Nick Komiya's articles to see if there are mil specs posted.  So far, only this very general requirement:

[PNSSHOGUN]

The RJT blades followed a fairly similar shape, seem to recall some requirements around that.

[Bruce Pennington]

Still searching (where's @Kiipu when you need him?!).

 

This Komiya thread talks about Navy kaigunto requirements, and points out they went into much more detail due to fear of sloppy workmanship in the market:

Launch Documentation of the 1937 Navy Gunto

[Bruce Pennington]

This Ohmura page may have specs, but it's all in Japanese:

New Army Sword Regulations for Army Officers New Guntō establishment for army officers 1934 Type 94

 

名稱	将 校 同 相 當 官 准 士 官
刀	刀身	品質　鋼
	柄	品質　朴材白鮫皮着 　柄頭　 黄銅、銅鍍金櫻葉及櫻花ヲ浮彫刻シ金色小縁トス 　鳩目　二重裏菊座附金色金属 　目貫　三雙櫻花金色金属 　縁金　黄銅、銅鍍金櫻葉及櫻花ヲ浮彫刻シ金色小縁トス 　柄巻　茶褐色ノ革又ハ絹絲若ハ綿絲製平打紐ヲ巻ク 　猿手　茶褐色ノ革又ハ絹絲若ハ綿絲製丸打紐
	鍔	品質　黄銅、金鍍金表裏共四隅ニ櫻花各四箇を浮彫刻ス
	鞘	品質　鋼(下鞘朴材)燐酸塩被膜法錆止ヲ施シ帶青茶褐色 　鯉口　黄銅、銅鍍金櫻葉及櫻花ヲ浮彫刻シ金色小縁トス 　佩鐶　櫓金及鐶　鋼、銅鍍金 　座金　黄銅、銅鍍金櫻花ヲ浮彫刻シ金腰ヲ施ス 　帶金　黄銅、銅鍍金、金色小縁トシ上部ニ櫻葉及櫻蕾ヲ 　　　　 浮彫刻シ金腰ヲ施ス 　責金　黄銅、銅鍍金、金色小縁トシ柏葉金色金属 　鐺　　黄銅、銅鍍金櫻葉及櫻花ヲ浮彫刻シ金色小縁トス
	鐺	黄銅、銅鍍金櫻葉及櫻花ヲ浮彫刻シ金色小縁トス
	製式	第一佩鐶ハ鯉口ヨリ約六十粍、第二佩鐶ハ刀ノ重心ヨリ稍上方 　ニ責金ハ鐺ヨリ約百六十粍上方ニ設ク  寸法形状　圖の如シ

 

[John C]

Here's one document that mentions minimum blade length for donated blades.

 

John C.

[Kiipu]

There are some blade drawings in the Toyosuke thread.  The one I posted was for the navy's anti-rust blade.

Who was ToyoSuke?

[vajo]

I put my swords together in one picture to compare the shape. Its on my site. There is no such thing like a standard. Every sword is different.

[Polaria]

10 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

I am searching Nick Komiya's articles to see if there are mil specs posted.  So far, only this very general requirement:

 

Just checking, is this really "sufficient for single hand grip" and not "two hand grip"?

[Yukihiro]

Thank you very much for all your input

 

The reason why I asked in the first place was because Leon and Hiroko Kapp & Leo Monson mention 'a typical army or gunto shape' in their book (Modern Japanese Swords: The Beginning of the Gendaito Era), so my assumption was there must have been some kind of standard shape for gunto blades.

[Bruce Pennington]

I don't think there was a spec for Army blades, except those for RJT.  Here is @george trotter's translation of that reg:

"Commissioned Officer’s Gunto Manufacturing Specifications. (English Translation)
English Translation by George Trotter, Documents provided by K. Morita
Article 1. The drawings and writings appended at left describe the specifications for the manufacture
and polishing of each blade to be delivered/supplied.
1. Generally the shape and length will be a balance of elegance and strength. Cutting ability will
be good and especially as regards the forging of thehira‐uchi and the mune‐uchi , these will be
tough but light, so as not to bend or break.
2. Shape will be shinogi‐tsukuri andtorii‐zori.
3. Blades will be of tamahagane and hocho‐tetsu and charcoal will be used. The strongest
methods of sword forging, combining toughness and structure will be enforced on
commencement (as described in the enclosure for style in Form 4). Ha‐ko carbon content will
be 0.5 – 0.7% range. Hocho‐tetsucarbon carburizing will be controlled by multi fold‐forging.
Carbon control will be in the 0.05 – 0.25% range.
4. Hamon is optional but must be chu in width.
5. Nakagoshape and file work will be of quality and mei cutting will be scrupulously done. The mei
will be on the outside in the normal way and on the reverse/opposite side will be the date of
manufacture as year, month, day (sexagenary cycle is also permissible).
6. The blade body will have a degree of niku, but mune and shinogi‐ji surfaces will be flat. Ji and ha
roundness to be moderately hamaguri‐ba. There will be no unevenness in the polishing of the
corner lines, curves or straight lines, nor in the symmetry of the omote and ura. There will be
no grinding marks and “scratches”.Ji‐hada will be clearly apparent. Yakiba borderline to be
wiped withnugui. The shinogi‐ji and mune‐ji to be polished using migaki‐bo (burnishing needle)
to the area of the habaki. The ko‐shinogi and the matsuba‐kado interception point kasane will
also be polished leaving it a little thick, the dimensions of the ha section and themune section
to be at the regulation dimensions and not less.
7. Curvature, width, thickness, tip length and other dimensions are to be consistent with the
explanatory diagrams.
8. Length and weight.
Ha‐watari. Small: 2.0 ‐ 2.1shaku (60.6 ‐ 63.6 cm). 195 ‐ 205 momme (731.3 ‐ 768.8 g).
Medium: 2.1 ‐ 2.2 shaku (63.6 ‐ 66.7 cm). 205 ‐ 215 momme (768.8 ‐ 806.3 g).
Long: 2.2 ‐2.3 shaku (66.7 ‐ 69.7 cm). 215 ‐ 225 momme (806.3 ‐ 843.8 g).
Nakago. 7 sun (c. 21.2 cm).
9. Long, medium and short manufacture is to be carefully advised.
10. Concerning the shape and dimensions of completed swords, a little variation to the appended
drawings is acceptable, but exceeding the weight must be with approval.
11. It is a requirement that manufacturer who does yaki‐ire is the same man who does themei
cutting.
12. Small changes, variations or overlaps in the forging method or hardening component, requires
government approval.

[george trotter]

Yes Bruce, those regulations are (I think) the only guideline details I have seen as to blade length etc for Type 94 / 98 sword blades.

 

I do have another related gunto question for you however....what is the earliest date on a blade mounted in the steel scabbard Rinji Seishiki style sword mounts?

I ask this as I think this mounting came out a bit later than the usual lacquered wood scabbard type RS and as you have the best database of such things, I wondered what is the earliest dated example you have recorded...1942?...1943? 

I also think that they all come from the Seki area? I have one dated May 1944 by Seki Kanehide (star).

Just wondering Bruce...hope I'm not a pest...

Regards,

 

[Bruce Pennington]

7 hours ago, george trotter said:

what is the earliest date on a blade mounted in the steel scabbard Rinji Seishiki style sword mounts?

Mal,

Part of the problem in asking me is that I only track and file gunto with stamps.  If there are standard (tan, steel) RS gunto out there with no stamps, it won't be in my chart.  

Having said that, the earliest I found was a January 1943 Kanemune, NA stamped blade in the tan, steel fittings, posted by @Philip.  I haven't searched for the thread, but I'll post the photos.

 

I was surprised at your claim that the steel sayas came later, yet that is what I'm seeing, at least in gunto with stamped blades.  @Kiipu or @BANGBANGSAN might have more data than I do, though, on this question.

 

[BANGBANGSAN]

10 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Mal,

Part of the problem in asking me is that I only track and file gunto with stamps.  If there are standard (tan, steel) RS gunto out there with no stamps, it won't be in my chart.  

Having said that, the earliest I found was a January 1943 Kanemune, NA stamped blade in the tan, steel fittings, posted by @Philip.  I haven't searched for the thread, but I'll post the photos.

 

I was surprised at your claim that the steel sayas came later, yet that is what I'm seeing, at least in gunto with stamped blades.  @Kiipu or @BANGBANGSAN might have more data than I do, though, on this question.

 

Bruce

The Kanemune you post is January 1944 NOT 1943.The steel scanbbard RS most likly starts from 1944-1945,maybe that's why some collector call it Type 44.

 

[george trotter]

Interesting,

Not that I am fixated on the steel scabbard type, but I did wonder when they started and I did think I had not seen any early dated ones - not before 1944 in my case - and the types I have seen are both showato and RJT blades with star stamp. The gendaito blades I have seen are all 1944 and all have two locking buttons. The showato examples have only one.

So, maybe the steel scabbard type came out late war in Seki area due to the need to produce scabbards quicker (hand made wooden/lacquered scabbards must have taken longer/cost more?)

Be interested to see if any steel scabbard blades are dated 1943 or earlier.

[vajo]

The shapes of my gendai collection. All different.

[Yukihiro]

3 hours ago, vajo said:

The shapes of my gendai collection. All different.

That is indeed a beautiful collection, but they're all gendaito, aren't they?

My Masatsugu gunto/gendaito reached the polisher yesterday - he phoned me because he was surprised by the shape of the sword and immediately realised it was not a mere gunto, hence my assumption that there is some kind of typical gunto shape as opposed to more traditional blades.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Not quite sure what your assumption is here, is it that non-traditional blades have a 'standard' shape in a broad sense?

 

[Yukihiro]

1 hour ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Not quite sure what your assumption is here, is it that non-traditional blades have a 'standard' shape in a broad sense?

 

That's right.

[Bruce Pennington]

12 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

January 1944 NOT 1943

Dang!  Thanks Trystan.  I've fixed my files and the chart on that one.

 

However, I do have at least 2 more in '43.  

June 1943, Kaneyoshi, @grapppa NMB

 

October 1943, VIP Auction

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

@george trotter

Just came across this Dec 1943 Kazunori in standard, steel saya.  On this St. Croix Blades page.  I does seem like the first version of it was a darker tan, and maybe the light tan came after.

 

[george trotter]

Thanks for the info Bruce...I see it is dated Dec 1943...so it is like most steel scabbards have seen (i.e. dated 1943 - 1944  - 1945).

I wonder what the earliest dated Rinji Seshiki steel scabbard sword will be?...hope we get a few more replies.

Regards,

[John C]

6 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

first version of it was a darker tan, and maybe the light tan came after

I know some colors were personal choice, however I think other color changes could have to do with theater of operation. 

 

John C.