watsonmil Posted January 16, 2010 Report Posted January 16, 2010 Hello everyone, The forums seem a bit quiet so I thought I might start a new thread. In my collection is an unusual Jitte. Around the base of the jitte shaft a section of steel has been wrapped around and forge welded into place to form a single edged blade. Sharpened on the inside edge. A palm forward and upward thrust would bring the cutting edge to bear against your opponent. Above this is a grip of tightly woven rattan. Above this the sword catcher has been attached by making a rectangular hole thru the jitte shaft, and then either heavily riviting or forge welding to make a strong permanent attachment. The shaft then ends in a tapered flattened trois foil. A hole has been punched or more likely drilled from both sides. A split iron ring passes thru I suppose so that the jitte could be hung up when not in use. There are numerous sword cuts along the shaft indicating actual use in combat to fend off a sword. The depth of these cuts are more indicative of serious combat than a defensive practice session. The patina is such that I have no doubt it being original and not artificial. Even the sharp edges of the sword cuts are rounded off and appear very old. It would appear that this jitte has seen action in either the seedier parts of Edo, or in some Clan confontation. Now, I'm sure someone will say, ... a jitte in combination with a fireman's pick. I don't think so as this is like no other fireman's pick in my collection, or in any that I have observed. Overall length is 15 inches ( 38 cm ). Anyway, ... there it is. I welcome your comments. ..... Ron Watson Quote
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted January 16, 2010 Report Posted January 16, 2010 Hi Ron. ...mmm... Basically, I watch it upsidedown. IMHO it's not a Jutte but looks like a firefighter's tool. What is supposed to be the "arm" for trapping the blades might be used to hang the tool at the Obi and as hook to climb. The supposed signs of cuts are in the wrong position, over the hook, while in a real jutte they should be toward the end of the bar where is placed the ring that, possibly, once was used to tie a cord. Try to trace an ideal line following the angles of the cuts. Seems to me there is no way for a blade to leave such signs without touching also the hook. They're too deep for being the result of a blade simply sliding on the bar. Rattan might have been added later. I can't explain the presence of that triangular blade on a Jutte. Looks dangerous near the whirst/hand. Of course, just suppositions. I can be wrong. Provenance ? Quote
watsonmil Posted January 17, 2010 Author Report Posted January 17, 2010 Hi Carlo, At an angle the blade would strike the shaft of the Jitte, .... only the Shinogi-ji or Mune would touch the protusion ( if you're trying to catch your opponents blade ). Also not pictured are cuts on the back opposite the " catcher ", as well as several much further down the shaft nearer the end. I wondered about the possibility of cutting one's hand as well on the bottom blade, ... but if an object ( blade ) strikes the jitte it actually is going to push the cutting edge of the jitte blade away from the palm. In my hand when held in a defensive position, the blade does not interfere with my hand, and yet if I want to go into a offensive position, all I do is turn the front of the jitte away from my opponet and instantly by bringing the palm of my hand forward and upward I am now slashing rather than defending. Getting back to the angle of the cuts in relation to the " catcher ", all are in a position which would indicate the jitte was blocking the slashes of the opponents sword rather than trying to catch and break or hold the opponent blade. Catching an opponents blade in a serious fight would be a tricky move without the danger of losing ones fingers or thumb. You are more likely to use the shaft to block, ... which alignes the sword cuts perfectly in relation to the " catcher ". I would not want to use a jitte in a sword like position ( rather short and dull ) against a sword, but as a blocking tool which this item displays perfectly. ............ Ron Watson Quote
Brian Posted January 17, 2010 Report Posted January 17, 2010 I would still be leaning towards this being a tobikuchi (fireman's tool) There are many explanations as to how the marks got there, including the fact that: "Comprised of the homeless, the unemployed, former criminals, and so on, the hikeshi were renowned for getting into street brawls when they weren't busy. The tobikuchi frequently served a convenient improvised self-defense weapon in such disputes" That (copyrighted) text is taken from: http://www.e-budokai.com/weapons/tobikuchi.htm Brian Quote
IanB Posted January 17, 2010 Report Posted January 17, 2010 Hum, No, I don't think this is a tobikuchi. I have a jitte with the same tobikuchi at the base, although mine has no side-hook and simply tapers to a plain end. Mine too is red lacquered and has the part above the pick bound to form a grip. Since the pick isn't really sharp on the edge that butts against the hand, it is perfectly practical. It is getting a bit late now but I will try and post an image tomorrow. Ian Bottomley Quote
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted January 17, 2010 Report Posted January 17, 2010 IanB said: Since the pick isn't really sharp on the edge that butts against the hand, it is perfectly practical. Hi Ian. Here is my problem. Practical for what ? If it is a Jutte it should work as a Jutte, so why the pick ? And the rings at the supposed top ? Best thing I can think of is it's a tobikuchi refurbished as a jutte/jitte. Quote
watsonmil Posted January 17, 2010 Author Report Posted January 17, 2010 In response to Carlo, and Brian's input, ... I would find it difficult to accept the " catcher " being a hook to fasten the weapon and or tool to the Obi. It sticks out too far from the shaft, plus the flat ( wider side ) would be turned 90 degrees if this were the case ( flatter side against the waist ). As a blocking weapon, and if opportunity arose to actually catch a sword ( possible but masochistic ) ... ALL jitte were most likely used more for blocking than actual catching of your opponents sword. This example allows you to also go on the offensive rather than strictly defensive should the situation warrent it. ....... It is also possible that this item is sort of a cross between a hachiwara and a jitte, ... and that the ring is for suspension to the ring often found on the front or sides of armour. In other words a samurai's additional defence and offensive weapon. Anyways, .... it's interesting and bloody old. ......... Ron Watson Quote
John A Stuart Posted January 17, 2010 Report Posted January 17, 2010 Hi Guys, I have to go with Carlo on this one. I think it is a tobikuchi as well, modified to be a jutte. the ring serves no purpose other than to hang on a wall for emergency use. The kuchi is just to hold the axe in the obi. I include a pic of a more ornate one on Michael de Longs site. That one has a socket to take a pole. Most that you see pictured are long handled ones the firemen used. The short ones are more convenient to carry. This is from Don Cunningham’s site. Notice the solid iron tobikuchi. http://www.e-budokai.com/weapons/tobikuchi.htm Quote
estcrh Posted January 17, 2010 Report Posted January 17, 2010 This item looks like some kind of firemans tool, what looks like a hook could be some kind of hand guard, the wrap is very high up indicating that someone would have gripped this tool with 1 hand near the head......here are some other types of such tools http://s831.photobucket.com/albums/zz23 ... s%20tools/ Quote
watsonmil Posted January 17, 2010 Author Report Posted January 17, 2010 Well guys, ... if it is a tobikuchi ... " modified to be a jutte ", ... then it is a jutte. John, ... please note the positioning of the kuchi on the Michael de Long example. It is on the opposite side from the kuchi, whereas on my example it is on the same side as the blade. Using the kuchi to hang my example from an obi is going to be somewhat uncomfortable with the cutting edge pointing inward. I am not saying you guys are wrong, .... all I am saying is we're splitting hairs here. If this were a fireman ( which it may have belonged to ), he was certainly unpopular. Whomever is more correct we shall never know. It is a most interesting tool / weapon at any rate. .... Ron Watson PS. Which is acceptable jitte or jutte ???? Quote
John A Stuart Posted January 18, 2010 Report Posted January 18, 2010 A few of the more common names are; 十梃 juttei or jittei meaning ten levers 術手 jutte or jutsute meaning art hand 十手 jutte or jitte meaning 10 hands 実手 jitte meaning hand of truth Other names include tetsushaku, tekkan, kotsukin, tetsumu and teboh. John Quote
estcrh Posted January 18, 2010 Report Posted January 18, 2010 Is it possible that it is a jutte that was turned into a tobikuchi?..that could explain some things, the ring and axe head could have been added to an existing jutte. Edo period recycling. Quote
estcrh Posted February 18, 2011 Report Posted February 18, 2011 I saw this unusual tobikuchi / jutte and remembered this thread. I have never seen this type before and thought I would post some pictures. http://page16.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/u33661815 Quote
watsonmil Posted February 18, 2011 Author Report Posted February 18, 2011 Dear Eric, My opinion is that it is a gun barrel shortened and modified to become a jutte / tobikuchi ( more jutte than tobikuchi ). Note the treaded end .... looks to be a breachplug ( bizen ). Another case of recycing ? An interestng item. ... Ron Watson Quote
estcrh Posted February 18, 2011 Report Posted February 18, 2011 watsonmil said: Dear Eric, My opinion is that it is a gun barrel shortened and modified to become a jutte / tobikuchi ( more jutte than tobikuchi ). Note the treaded end .... looks to be a breachplug ( bizen ). Another case of recycing ? An interestng item. ... Ron Watson Ron I was thinking the same thing, a gun barrel, but it would have been much easier to simply convert it into a tobikuchi, for some reason it seems to be a dual purpose item, which made me think once again about yours. Jutte are said to be as much a badge of office as a weapon and maybe the tobikuchi was the same. Perhaps just having one gave the owner a certain amount of authority in an emergency, if you were both a police officer and fireman at the same time it would be cheaper to have both symbols in one, and easier to carry.....just a thought. Quote
watsonmil Posted February 18, 2011 Author Report Posted February 18, 2011 Dear Eric, Although speculation, ... it is never the less plausible. In the example which originated this thread, ... I have no doubt that the item was a jutte in spite of debate. In your pictured example, .... I again have no personal doubt, but that it is a jutte also. ... Ron Watson Quote
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted February 18, 2011 Report Posted February 18, 2011 watsonmil said: My opinion is that it is a gun barrel shortened and modified to become a jutte / tobikuchi ( more jutte than tobikuchi ). It's a possibility, but using the handle dimensions as comparison it looks to me (but I can be wrong) a bit thin and too much tapering for being a part of gun barrel. An heck of a work to modify a barrel this way, IMHO. Might be the hole goes only shortly inside the body of the item. Quote
estcrh Posted February 18, 2011 Report Posted February 18, 2011 watsonmil said: Dear Eric, My opinion is that it is a gun barrel shortened and modified to become a jutte / tobikuchi Quote It's a possibility, but using the handle dimensions as comparison it looks to me (but I can be wrong) a bit thin and too much tapering for being a part of gun barrel. An heck of a work to modify a barrel this way The taper is wrong, a gun barrel maker would have the means to thread the opposite end of a barrel and to make a attachment to screw into the threads though. It seems to have been custom made. Which leads to another question....what method did the Japanese use for cutting threads? I have not yet seen a picture of a lathe being used. Quote
watsonmil Posted February 18, 2011 Author Report Posted February 18, 2011 Dear Eric, Very observant of you, .... indeed the taper of the barrel is reversed for this to have been an un-modified bizen / barrel. Although I still am of the opinion that it has been made from a pre-existing gun barrel, the maker would have to have threaded the muzzle end to accept a modified bizen. Not out of the question but certainly odd, and time consuming in that he could have heat forged a suitable hook rather than cut new threads to fit a modified bizen. I am wondering if there at one time was there more than ONE modified end ( note the hole drilled horizontal to anchor the tip. It is again speculation, but if there was more than one style of tip to this jutte / tobikuchi this would possibly answer this conundrum of the threaded end. ... Ron Watson Quote
estcrh Posted February 18, 2011 Report Posted February 18, 2011 watsonmil said: Dear Eric, Very observant of you, .... indeed the taper of the barrel is reversed for this to have been an un-modified bizen / barrel. ... Ron Watson Ron, to be fair it was Carlo that mentioned the taper. The item in question sold for around $600, someone thought it was unusual enough to spend a relative fortune for a strange jutte thing considering the really exquisite jutte I see sell for half that price. .. Quote
watsonmil Posted February 18, 2011 Author Report Posted February 18, 2011 Dear Eric, Carlo, Indeed, ... credit where credit is due ... Carlo my apologies. I think you get the winning point. ... Ron Watson Quote
estcrh Posted February 18, 2011 Report Posted February 18, 2011 watsonmil said: Dear Eric, Carlo, Indeed, ... credit where credit is due ... Carlo my apologies. I think you get the winning point. ... Ron Watson Ron, have you ever seen any evidence of how the Japanese turned the threads of barrels, bolts etc that are threaded? Quote
John A Stuart Posted February 18, 2011 Report Posted February 18, 2011 This was before lathes were available and cutting tools specific to the job were used, set up on centering jigs. As well finishing the thread was done with files. I can't find any piccies. John Quote
Baka Gaijin Posted February 18, 2011 Report Posted February 18, 2011 Evening all, Scroll to bottom of page for contemporary Japanese Illustrations of tools: http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/2033046/1/ Cheers Malcolm Quote
watsonmil Posted February 18, 2011 Author Report Posted February 18, 2011 Dear Eric, Although I can find no SPECIFIC drawing of the necessary tools used by the Japanese, ( except the words hand cut ), ... I suspect a tappered TAP was made using files giving the rate, depth and pitch of the necessary screw thread. This tool would then be tempered ( to harden it ) and hand screwed into the barrel giving the female cut. A rod of slightly larger diameter would then be made using files with the tap as a model for rate, depth and pitch giving the male or Bizen screw. Most Bizens do not fit well and often required a thin sheet of lead or brass fitted around the bizen screws and upon threading into the female threads compressed to cause a tight fit. ... Ron Watson Quote
John A Stuart Posted February 18, 2011 Report Posted February 18, 2011 That's the cutting tools I mentioned Ron. Like taps and dies you see now for inside and outside threading. Each smith would have a set of his own. Even though they would have been made to certain pitch and thread tolerances would be coarse early on and they would not be interchangeable. I believe that these early models were more of a grinding type that finished a previously cast thread. Lapping if you will. If you check the bizen you should determine that likely these threaded parts were cast with a rough thread. I think if research was done on this aspect it might be possible to attribute certain work to a specific smith by measuring these characteristics. John Quote
watsonmil Posted February 18, 2011 Author Report Posted February 18, 2011 Dear John, I personally have not seen a Bizen which I could definitively say was cast, .... I have seen several Bizen which I can say were definitely NOT cast. Fortunately the better Tanegashima were invariably signed (exceptions do exist ). As far as identifying smiths, unlike swords I feel there are few Gimei ( again I am sure exceptions exist ), ... but in comparison to swords . You know what would really help and advance the study of the Tanegashima would be for someone to translate the known Japanese Tanegashima signatures into English along with their working dates, school, etc. A signature book exists, ... but only in Japanese and that needs a thorough update and revision I understand. ..... A project for Piers :D ! ... Ron Watson Quote
estcrh Posted February 18, 2011 Report Posted February 18, 2011 There is an excellent book called ''Tanegashima The Arrival of Europe in Japan" by Olof G Lindin. In his book Lindin makes a point of noting that the lord of the island were the Portuguese first landed (Lord Tanegashima Tokitaka) in 1543 appointed a local sword smith (Yaita) the task of replicating the 1 or 2 Tanegashima which lord Tokitaka had purchased from the Portuguese. The smith yaita did not have much of a problem with most of the gun but "drilling the barrel helically so that the screw could be tightly inserted'' was a major problem as "This technique did apparently not exist in Japan until this time'' Lindin writes that the Portuguese fixed their ship and left the island and only in the next year when a Portuguese blacksmith was brought back to Japan was the problem solved. Quote
Baka Gaijin Posted February 19, 2011 Report Posted February 19, 2011 Morning all Third of the page down, photograph of a preserved gunsmiths workshop with tools in Sakai: 1-3-22 Kitahatago-cho-Nishi, Sakai-ku, Sakai City: http://www.city.sakai.lg.jp/foreigner_e ... spot6.html It says not open to the "general" public, however perhaps a friendly letter of academic inquiry to the Sakai City archivist (or equivalent) could produce a result? http://www.city.sakai.lg.jp/index.html Cheers Malcolm Quote
watsonmil Posted February 19, 2011 Author Report Posted February 19, 2011 Dear Malcolm, I'm not sure where our member Piers lives ( member of a shooting club in Japan ), but this would make an excellent article and contribution to the study of the Tanegashima if he were able to gain access. I will PM him and see what he has to say. In the meantime a big thank you to you Malcolm for bringing this historic site to everyone's attention. I certainly did not know about it's existance. ... Ron Watson Quote
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