What did a tsuba cost in the Edo period?

[Dan tsuba]

So, does anybody know how much an average hand forged tsuba (no super great work of art and no mei) cost in the Edo period (let’s say about from 1750 to 1800 – to keep things simpler!).

 

Not all samurai made the same amount of money. 

 

I could talk about being paid in units of koku (rice) or currency or scrip money of the period (but I won’t!). 

 

The links to koku and scrip money can be found below-

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koku

 

https://en.wikipedia..._of_Edo_period_Japan

 

The samurai class varied from the very wealthy samurai to the much less wealthy (poor) samurai. 

 

I found that Markus Sesko wrote a brilliant article (I think in 2021) on the cost of a sword in Edo period Japan.

 

His article can be found at the below link-

 

https://nihonto.com/samurai-income/

 

But I wonder (and I can’t figure out how to convert all the different units to the dollar bill!) how much an average type of tsuba would have cost the Edo period samurai in today’s currency?

 

Has that ever been discussed before (if so I could not find it in the archives of this forum).

 

I think this is an interesting question to consider.

 

Onward!

 

 

 

 

[Toryu2020]

For the story of super high-end tsuba and fittings look here;

 

https://nihonto.com/nakai-koshirae/

[davel]

Although not focusing on tsuba prices, still interesting to read >

 

[OceanoNox]

I have cited this previously, but it's just before Edo period:

Alessandro Valignano wrote that lord Otomo Sourin bought an iron tsuba for the equivalent of 4500 ducats. Swords would be bought for the equivalent of 3000~6000 ducats. Some conversions give the value of a 16th century ducat to about 148 USD. So the price of the tsuba was about 666,000 USD and the price of swords was in the range of 444,000~888,000 USD

[Jake6500]

10 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

So, does anybody know how much an average hand forged tsuba (no super great work of art and no mei) cost in the Edo period (let’s say about from 1750 to 1800 – to keep things simpler!).

 

Not all samurai made the same amount of money. 

 

I could talk about being paid in units of koku (rice) or currency or scrip money of the period (but I won’t!). 

 

The links to koku and scrip money can be found below-

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koku

 

https://en.wikipedia..._of_Edo_period_Japan

 

The samurai class varied from the very wealthy samurai to the much less wealthy (poor) samurai. 

 

I found that Markus Sesko wrote a brilliant article (I think in 2021) on the cost of a sword in Edo period Japan.

 

His article can be found at the below link-

 

https://nihonto.com/samurai-income/

 

But I wonder (and I can’t figure out how to convert all the different units to the dollar bill!) how much an average type of tsuba would have cost the Edo period samurai in today’s currency?

 

Has that ever been discussed before (if so I could not find it in the archives of this forum).

 

I think this is an interesting question to consider.

 

Onward!

 

 

 

 

 

I think in the period specified most transactions would already be taking place with set currency at that point in the history. Kokudaka would probably only be used for larger scale transactions or transactions in the agricultural sector such as village taxes or fund allocations for a wider fief or samurai house by 1750 or later. Your typical ronin or low ranking samurai was being paid in rice but not making payments in kokudaka save for currency exchange.

 

According to Sesko, 1 Ryo was valued at about 4,000 mon and the average samurai retainer was therefore earning around 12,000 mon a year or 1,000 mon per month. Sesko gives a range of prices for complete swords but the average appears to be between 21,000 and 30,000 mon, so between 1 year and 9 months and 2.5 years salary for a lower ranking retainer. Of course, higher quality work would cost even more than this, as much as 45,000 mon or 3 years 9 months salary according to Sesko.

 

Good luck changing these figures into USD or modern day currencies lol.

 

In any event, the question that remains is how much was a tsuba worth relative to the rest of the sword?

 

 

 

 

[Jake6500]

7 hours ago, OceanoNox said:

I have cited this previously, but it's just before Edo period:

Alessandro Valignano wrote that lord Otomo Sourin bought an iron tsuba for the equivalent of 4500 ducats. Swords would be bought for the equivalent of 3000~6000 ducats. Some conversions give the value of a 16th century ducat to about 148 USD. So the price of the tsuba was about 666,000 USD and the price of swords was in the range of 444,000~888,000 USD

 

Not sure a sword owned by a daimyo is a typical example to use for the average sword price for your average samurai...

 

This is clearly an excessive amount for most members of the samurai class.

[Robert S]

22 hours ago, OceanoNox said:

I have cited this previously, but it's just before Edo period:

Alessandro Valignano wrote that lord Otomo Sourin bought an iron tsuba for the equivalent of 4500 ducats. Swords would be bought for the equivalent of 3000~6000 ducats. Some conversions give the value of a 16th century ducat to about 148 USD. So the price of the tsuba was about 666,000 USD and the price of swords was in the range of 444,000~888,000 USD

That sounds wrong, unless it was a treasure sword with a long and exceptional provenance.  One way to think about this is, for the sword itself, what the average annual gross earning of a sword smith was, before their costs for charcoal, tamahagane, etc. and how many swords a year they could make.  Then add the cost for polishing, koshirae, etc.  - maybe doubling the final price.  If the swords were really in that range I think there would have been some stupendously wealthy swordsmiths who were also serving as bankers to the daimyos... and I don't think that happened, so something is being lost in translation.

[kyushukairu]

On 12/2/2024 at 10:29 AM, OceanoNox said:

I have cited this previously, but it's just before Edo period:

Alessandro Valignano wrote that lord Otomo Sourin bought an iron tsuba for the equivalent of 4500 ducats. Swords would be bought for the equivalent of 3000~6000 ducats. Some conversions give the value of a 16th century ducat to about 148 USD. So the price of the tsuba was about 666,000 USD and the price of swords was in the range of 444,000~888,000 USD

Arnaud, do you have a source for this? As someone who previously lived in Oita (Bungo) and is interested in Bungo/ Otomo related tosogu, I'd like to look into this further

[OceanoNox]

3 hours ago, kyushukairu said:

do you have a source for this?

Yes, I found the citation in a paper by Mr. Kawami about the analysis of iron tsuba: http://www.kurokawa-...1904281025162413.pdf

The paper itself is referring to a translation of Valignano's travel journal: https://www.heibonsh...jp/book/b161281.html

I assumed both the translation and the citation were correct. Unfortunately, I cannot find the journal itself, nor have I read any of the existing translations.

[Spartancrest]

Well this is the result when you ask AI

 

AI Overview

"The price of a tsuba, a sword guard, during the Edo period varied widely, from around $30 to over $8,000, depending on the quality and design."  

 

It then goes on to auction prices or sales figures of current tsuba

 

$29.99: A tsuba with raised gilt decorations of bamboo, a lobster, or dragons 
$122.50: A signed dragon sukashi tsuba 
$135.00: A signed daikoku lucky god tsuba 
$225.00: A high grade Choshu school fine carving landscape tsuba 
$345.00: An antique Japanese Edo era samurai iron tsuba sword hilt guard in frame 
$8,019.60: A tsuba with gold and silver inlays of cranes 
¥4,000,000: An Edo period Bakumatsu antique tsuba for a samurai sword

 

- so basically it has not got a clue! But we will soon be under its complete control so get use to the bullshit! 

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

How long is a piece of string? 
 

How much is a car today? How much is a house today? How much is an education today? 
 

They are what you can afford, and there should be something for (almost) everyone.

 

One counter for “a suit” of armor is “Ichi Ryō” 一領

It is said that “ryō” means residence or domain, according to one explanation, i.e. it could cost the price of a plot of land and a house.

[kyushukairu]

6 hours ago, OceanoNox said:

Yes, I found the citation in a paper by Mr. Kawami about the analysis of iron tsuba: http://www.kurokawa-...1904281025162413.pdf

The paper itself is referring to a translation of Valignano's travel journal: https://www.heibonsh...jp/book/b161281.html

I assumed both the translation and the citation were correct. Unfortunately, I cannot find the journal itself, nor have I read any of the existing translations.

 

Many thanks, Arnaud. I had a look at Kawami-san's paper and read the quotation on the first page. However, the discussion only mentions the cost of swords. Valignano says that in Japan a single sword may cost 3000, 4000, and even 6000 ducats. He then says that Ōtomo Sōrin showed him a sword which cost 4500 ducats, and Valignano then states that he thinks this is a ridiculous amount of money because there is no material value, which he empathizes by saying the tsuba was made of iron, not gold.

 

「なぜなら一本の刀 を、三千、四千、あるいは六千ドゥカードも出して購う。私はそれらの高価なものの幾つかを見たが、 その中には豊後国王(大友宗麟)が私に見せたものがある。彼はそれを四千五百ドゥカードで購入し たのであるが、その鍔は黄金ではなく、単なる鉄製に過ぎなかった。私はそれらの高価なものの幾つかを見たが、 その中には豊後国王(大友宗麟)が私に見せたものがある。彼はそれを四千五百ドゥカードで購入し たのであるが、その鍔は黄金ではなく、単なる鉄製に過ぎなかった。」

[Alex A]

Interesting question

 

Judging by how many koshirae have guards that are not original to that koshirae. As in stuff like seeing a saya with no space for a Kogatana but tsuba has the hole.

 

Would say it was only the well of that would have tsuba made, guessing there would be buckets of old spare tsuba knocking about. If you find a good one that fits, why buy new.

 

If you were having new swords made then i suppose you would have newkoshirae/ guards made.

 

Just thoughts, don't know the price lol.

 

 

[OceanoNox]

20 minutes ago, kyushukairu said:

彼はそれを四千五百ドゥカードで購入し たのであるが、その鍔は黄金ではなく、単なる鉄製に過ぎなかった。

I took this as meaning that Otomo Sourin showed one item he bought for 4500 ducats, and that item was an iron tsuba ("not even gold"). But your interpretation makes more sense now that I look at it more closely.