Tsuba purchasing on eBay

[GeorgeLuucas]

Thanks Dan, and fair enough. To each their own. 

I've been collecting for a similar amount of time. When I started, I had similar aspirations to collect more, but as I've learned and acquired items of varying quality, I now want less (but nicer) items. It's interesting to hear other peoples perspectives and collecting motivations. 

I generally agree, that I'd rather have 5 great swords over 1 supreme sword. I find enjoyment in variety, and I imagine I'd get bored with a tiny collection. 

To careen this back on track. If you must buy on eBay, here's some advice that I recommend:
1. Like Spartancrest said above, always check shipping price!
I've seen items listed for $10 with $500 shipping attached, in hopes someone won't notice.
2. Always check seller history and feedback.
 If a seller has no history, or bad feedback. Take that into account and proceed with caution.
3. Always check seller location and shipping details before purchase.
I've seen sellers with "pickup only". Or sellers shipping from antarctica. Beware!
4. Find sellers you like and trust, or are recommended, and prioritize them.
5. Understand the inherent risks of buying on the internet.

Happy hunting. 
-Sam
 
 

[cluckdaddy76]

As this thread was meant for newer collectors, I have one piece of advice on any auction site. If you are unsure whether a piece is legit or not, take a look at what else that seller has to offer. If they have one questionable  tsuba, but then have another ten that are clearly cast or reproductions, I suggest passing on the one in question. I feel auction sites are a better learning tool than many people realize, as long as you are just window shopping. My other piece of advice is to then go to a website like Ginza Seiyudo and study their pieces so one can start to understand the difference in quality. I believe this has saved me from mistakes, especially when I first started poking after getting my collection and wanting to buy more right away.

 

Jason

[Spartancrest]

7 hours ago, GeorgeLuucas said:

Take the money you've invested in 150 eBay tsuba. Would you not have more enjoyment investing the same amount of money in say, 50 tsuba? Would the quality not increase a lot?

I think this is the very heart of the "problem". Investing more money on fewer items is no guarantee that the items are in fact "better" - How does paying more increase the quality? It should be the case but often it is not.

 

Which one of these is selling for US $32,775.00 and the other for US $422.06 ? - Now tell me why buying the more expensive one gets me value for money?

 

    

[GeorgeLuucas]

Fair enough, but that’s an extreme example! For the sake of the exercise, I like the one on top more (but I’d never pay 32k!) 

 

I guess my point was, that in my experience, I see far nicer items in the $200-$500 dollar range than I do in the sub $150 range. And if you have some knowledge, dealing in that price range, (especially with trusted dealers), would likely yield more a more quality collection.

 

Like Dan said though, more risk, and I get that. 

-Sam 

Edited November 26 by GeorgeLuucas
(Especially with trusted dealers)

[Tcat]

I have found a few tsuba bargains on ebay but in recent years they have been much rarer. One nice tsuba among a bunch of junk tsuba one seller was offering last year turned out great. It is still possible but its not something I would encourage beginners to do because the time spent searching for a deal makes it a false economy...and you have to know what youre looking at.

[Spartancrest]

38 minutes ago, GeorgeLuucas said:

For the sake of the exercise, I like the one on top more (but I’d never pay 32k!) 

Me either! 

Sorry but the one with the timber background was the most expensive. [and from ebay!]

 

Coming down to more realistic prices -  [neither are from ebay ]

      one selling for USD $300 the other USD $55.19

 

In this case the one with the "heavy" Tagane-ato gets my vote and is the less expensive. I guess dealers have to make a profit but their turnover would be better if the profit percentage was say 100% rather than close to 500% like this last example! [OK 445.45% to be exact for the **** -retentive]

22 minutes ago, Tcat said:

One nice tsuba among a bunch of junk tsuba one seller was offering last year turned out great.

 

Don't you just hate that! There are way too many of these "buy in bulk lots" where you only want the ONE good piece and you end up with a drawer full of junk and have to pay more for shipping that said junk around the planet! I have messaged many dealers asking for the price of "the one" but never get a good result - they are too anxious to clean out their own desk drawer! 

 

[Tcat]

30 minutes ago, Spartancrest said:

Don't you just hate that! There are way too many of these "buy in bulk lots" where you only want the ONE good piece and you end up with a drawer full of junk and have to pay more for shipping that said junk around the planet! I have messaged many dealers asking for the price of "the one" but never get a good result - they are too anxious to clean out their own desk drawer! 

 

Lol - What I meant in this case was this particular seller had a lot of true junk listed. Overpriced low-quality genuine tsuba along with the worst kind of china repro junk, but in among the tat was a nice, albeit not very old tsuba I made an offer on which was accepted. What you are talking about though I see all the time, and it seems to be even more the case with auction houses savvy to what their buyers actually want to get ahold of. Another classic is to throw a real nice menuki in, without its partner of course, or attempt to palm off tobacco pouch ornaments as menuki..

[Alex A]

Just thought i would add to this thread, for beginners and costs.

 

In my humble experience of tsuba, would say $80 is a rock bottom price.

 

So lets say you buy 150 x $80 tsuba, thats $12000. (if your lucky on something half decent)

 

That's no small amount of money for folks with a small budget.

 

Horses for courses, up to folks what they spend their money on, just making a point.

 

[Spartancrest]

On 11/25/2024 at 4:19 PM, Spartancrest said:

Crap tsuba are of course not restricted to ebay 

Getting back to one of my PET HATE fake tsuba - https://www.jauce.com/auction/x1162738657   - not on ebay?   ¥46,000 for a colour copy. These things are very well made and in isolation they are likely to fool a great number of people - but when you have seen two or three hundred of the darn things you can't but feel sorry for the people who have bought them.

[buchtas]

Hi, just a quick question to all of you, about your experience wiht Jauce and its shipping abroad and how it works, i want to get into a tsuba collecting a little bit more and Jauce by all accounts from this froum seems like the best option. So I am curious how it works and how the shipping is working ? Thanks for any insight.

[lonely panet]

Ok. Get ready for fees. Small annoying fees.

Winning fee

Local delivery fee

Banking fee

And the postage and taxes.

But the selection of items both quality and price is 1000 times better.

 

Firstly you must have money in your jauce account to bid. When you win the item is posted to jauce, they pack it and send it to you. There packaging is the best.  Double padded in sturdy boxes all send via Japan post tracked an fully insured. Proof of id at pick up. 

 

All this can extend the time from buy to getting it in your hot little hands.

 

If your tsuba knowledge is good you will find gems at good prices.

 

If you want to buy drink coaster tsuba like the crude things afew posts  above that you couldnt attribute to a school or smith or learn anything from. Then ebay is the easier option. 

[Dan tsuba]

Hi again lonely panet!

 

Your post has some great information for new collectors!

 

Heck, I may even try purchasing again from Jauce (I even think I still have some money left in their account!).

 

Of course, I still won’t spend over $150 for a tsuba!

 

Ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!

 

Onward!

[Shugyosha]

Just buy good quality tsuba (fittings etc) from trusted sources, ideally papered so you know as well as you can that you’re getting what you pay for. 
 

If you want to go treasure hunting, go ahead, but expect the dross to far outweigh the quality. This can has been kicked down the road ad nauseam. There’s a simple answer to this conundrum and that’s to not be drawn into speculating on stuff on dodgy websites where the sellers hold the big cards. 

[Dan tsuba]

Hey John,

 

Are you really advising new collectors to, as you stated, “Just buy good quality tsuba (fittings etc) from trusted sources, ideally papered so you know as well as you can that you’re getting what you pay for.”

 

Now, I am sure you are aware that a papered tsuba can cost anywhere from (perhaps) 4 to maybe 10 times as much as a non-papered tsuba!

 

And then there are those tsuba that are papered, but with the dreaded green papers!

 

I know there must be a forum thread or something that discusses all the different certification papers that are out there, but I can’t find it.

 

I think that a reference source to the different types and colors of certification papers (over the years) may be helpful to new collectors (maybe if someone were to start another more recent thread on the subject).

[Dereks]

I’m a new collector and am currently fixing to buy my first Tsuba from a Japanese dealer. I’ve been reading the Tsuba section for some time now, and as John stated, my first Tsuba will be a papered one. Not Tokubetsu Hozon, as they are very expensive, but a regular NBTHK Hozon. It is $400. It will be a good piece for learning and studying. This way, as a beginner, I will know exactly what I’m buying. 

 

ps: Last month, I used ebay to buy my first tsuba book. 

 

 

[Spartancrest]

2 hours ago, lonely panet said:

Get ready for fees. Small annoying fees.

You forgot the deposit fee.  Add in Elon Musk taking his cut from any Paypal transaction + his very far off from current exchange rate conversion. [No wonder he is the richest man on Earth - he has taken all OUR money!]

 

One aspect you may not have experienced yet with Jauce is that they have a loyalty policy - if you have been a long term buyer from them, they do give a credit rating amount on the basis that you have paid all previous costs. The credit allows you to buy things when you may be a little short of funds temporarily, but they will send a "hurry up and pay" if you haven't topped up your account within 24 hrs  - I believe it took me eight years to win their credit trust! I am sure they don't fully trust "foreigners" 

 

Almost anything you find on Jauce can also be found on Yahoo JP and Buyee who have their own system of payments and fee structure, so it may be a good idea to check them out, they could be cheaper or offer sales on credit like ebay. I use Jauce because I find it easier to locate items that way but it is relatively easy to use Jauce as a search tool and then track down the same item on one of the other platforms. Each item has a unique code at the end eg. 

 

https://www.jauce.com/auction/1162767573      This part of the code 1162767573  can be pasted into a Buyee item say https://buyee.jp/ite.../auction/h1162219928  and end up with https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/1162767573 where you end up with the same item on a different platform. I hope that makes some sense.

[Dan tsuba]

This forum is a great resource for new collectors of tsuba!

 

So, let’s say a new collector sees a tsuba that they would like to purchase on one of the sites.  Jauce, ebay, or whatever.

 

If they are not in a rush to purchase the tsuba they can always place a picture of the tsuba on this forum (taken from the seller’s description) and ask for opinions about the piece (as has been done by several new collectors in the past).

 

A papered tsuba only means that an authority in Japan has recognized the tsuba as worthy as being preserved.

 

But there are many experts on this forum that can readily recognize the same thing and if a tsuba is worthy of being collected or not!

 

Unless the new tsuba collector is convinced (or has been convinced) that they must have a papered tsuba!

 

And perhaps by asking opinions about a non-papered tsuba on this forum, it will save the new collector some cash from buying a papered tsuba.

 

Hey, as always, just my opinion.  And only (once again) trying to help the new collectors of tsuba!.

 

 

[rkg]

I seem to be late to the party, as usual.

 

First off, if you can, stop using preypal for foreign transactions.  Not only do they stick you with some pretty stiff transaction fees, but they also give you a crummy exchange rate - and.... the sellers often add a fee on top of that, since they don't want to pay for preypal either and they often expect you to.  If your brokerage will do international wire transfers that works, but for the smaller amounts the people here seem to want to spend, you should contact your agent and see if they can use wise for transactions. the fees are like less than 1% and you get an excellent exchange rate (forex usually - really close to spot).

 

Second, if you're treasure hunting, you should be hunting treasures.  It is distressing to see particularly new (and sometimes not-so-new) collectors putting up pieces that are not well composed or executed, have poor workmanship, or bad condition problems (a coating of thick corrosion is generally not a good thing (except when it is - and ya gotta know when not to touch it - I have seen lovely ko-kinko pieces converted into pieces of indeterminate age by extreme cleaning - terrible)), etc.  Diatribe about various cleaning, etc you can and really can't get away with (finished product will look "bad" when compared to a cared for one) omitted. You can go down the whole dark path with "fixer uppers", but really, it is better to just avoid them.  There are a surprising number of pieces out there that are never going to be worth a lot, but they are in good condition, are well executed, etc - Rich Turner always called these "cheap and cheerful pieces".  And there is a surprising number of these up almost all the time (with no or very very small problems).  You can also get a deal if you are looking for a certain group or design or style of piece by buying what the Japanese don't want (wakizashi or tanto sized pieces, unsigned kinko that shouldn't be, etc).  There is a difference between wabi sabi and corroded wrecks that are best given to the scrap man...   I hate to say it, but this comes back to not knowing what good piece looks like. you can look in a book, but you would probably do better to try and see Known Good pieces in hand (go to shows, good museum collections, other collectors, etc.

 

Third, fakes.. There are a lot of them, including several sellers on Yahoo!Japan that are selling complete fabrications - pieces that must be made by weekend warrior amateur tsuba makers  they are usually a little "off" compared to what they are aiming for, have weird looking sekigane, etc - and sometimes these get bid up to crazy prices. And... there are a couple of sellers who seem to get ahold of old pieces, ruin them, and throw them up on YJ (they are the real deal, but they appear to have been sanded down, have an awful patina, etc)...  Discouraging.  On top of that, most of the volume sellers are dealers now, and they mostly know how to photograph stuff - to minimize or outright hide problems (not really a fake problem, but the pieces look far different in hand or when photographed to show everything).

 

Getting borderline dross is just a waste of your money IMHO.  Earlier in the year I actually bot some lower cost pieces mostly for photo testing.  A lot of them are in a condition where I can't sell them in good conscience - and I'll probably just give them away soon - maybe on the NMB for shipping and a donation to the NMB or something.

 

Just because I gotta put up an obligatory image, here's one.  I bought the piece as a "catch and release" testing mei shooting on funky surfaces, etc.  From the auction pictures you couldn't tell that the webs were partially eaten away, the surface has a pretty violent tsuchime - it looks like somebody took a punch or a hammer to the surface (it is "supposed" to be hammer work, but I've never seen something like this), you could not see the amida bori, etc.  this is similar to a piece posted earlier in this thread:

 

and maybe I should have put up a bigger version... oh well

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)

[Spartancrest]

1 hour ago, rkg said:

Japanese don't want (wakizashi or tanto sized pieces. . )

Yes I have noticed the smaller pieces are often much cheaper or even overlooked - I can't work out why myself, they take as long to make, maybe even more work involved - big is not always better. 

1 hour ago, rkg said:

know how to photograph stuff - to minimize or outright hide problems

I am often amused by some sellers posting very dark images of tsuba they are trying to sell - Don't they have enough money for electric light or do they live in a coal mine? It automatically makes you cautious!

2 hours ago, rkg said:

complete fabrications - pieces that must be made by weekend warrior amateur tsuba makers  they are usually a little "off"

This guy, I call him the "backyard blacksmith"  https://www.jauce.co...j2hmyuc?search=tsuba  He usually has more stock, but I think he is busy at his backyard forge getting next weeks designs done.  He still needs some work on his patina which is always black and oily looking.  

[Tcat]

38 minutes ago, Spartancrest said:

This guy, I call him the "backyard blacksmith"  https://www.jauce.co...j2hmyuc?search=tsuba  He usually has more stock, but I think he is busy at his backyard forge getting next weeks designs done.

 

These are worth a look at just for the giggle 

[Alex A]

Not averse to searching for low cost value for money, hence started a thread in the members area regarding budget items. I put it in there for a reason as didn't want the elitist brigade on my back lol.

 

Was thinking maybe folks could post stuff in there that they come across, should they not want to buy it. Assist someone else gain a good deal on something that one may not come across too often, something that has something about it.

 

Even stated would buy such an item.

 

Not talking about every day junk you see on Ebay. Gave that up years ago as become sick of sifting through trash and anything that was good, was the same price as what you find on dealer sites anyways.

 

Would one make a collection out of such items and spend a great deal of money?

 

No.

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

So, let’s talk about eBay and what can be found there.

 

Today I purchased a tsuba from eBay.

 

It was from a seller in the United States, so the listing would have not appeared on Jauce or anywhere else.

 

The piece was a buy it now or make offer.

 

The seller wanted $150 for the piece.

 

I made an offer of $125, and the seller accepted my offer.

 

Everyone was pleased, and I am pretty sure I made a decent purchase.

 

With shipping and taxes, the total cost of the piece came to $141.50 (still below my $150 maximum that I will spend for a tsuba).

 

It is my opinion that this tsuba is at least Edo period and has been mounted on at least one blade (maybe more than one blade).

 

The bronze and silver-colored inlays are probably the kamon of a family.

 

Does the tsuba have worn inlay, yes.  Does it have missing inlay, yes.  Do I care, no!

 

I do not have a tsuba like it in my collection, and I think it will make a great addition to my collection!

 

And just for some more added information-

 

I have a book published in 1950 that shows over 7000 Japanese family kamon - family crests (unfortunately it doesn’t list the name of the family).

 

I have found 2 kamon in that book that are close to the kamon shown on the tsuba.

 

Pictures of the tsuba (from the seller) and family kamon (that are close in form to the kamon shown on my tsuba) from my book are shown below.

 

I think deals can still be had on eBay!

 

But that is just my opinion!

 

Onward!

[Jake6500]

On 11/25/2024 at 10:33 AM, Okan said:

Here’s some excellent advice for new collectors from the late Darcy. Thought I’d share it here in his memory!

 

"For a collector, this small range in valuation differences between the mediocre and great is something that can be taken advantage of, no matter what your spending level, as small increments in valuation give rapidly increasing rewards for rarity, interest, and quality. 

 

This is the primary reason why it is a mistake to accumulate large numbers of items, because concentrating the same funds into fewer and more important works yields excellent results in these collecting domains.

 

There has to be a reason to buy something. More than just liking it, because there are a lot of things out there to like and they do deserve being liked. Owning is a different set of criteria however.

 

If you end up with the dreaded accumulation of stuff you will have missed much more interesting paths in exchange for simple quantity. " 

 

This is something I am still trying to learn.

 

My collection is a very mixed bag of random pieces (all authentic but little in the way of an overarching theme or style) as a couple other Melbourne based collectors can attest...

 

I've got a few nice, decent quality pieces. They're just so different from eachother lol.

[Jake6500]

On 11/27/2024 at 6:40 AM, Dan tsuba said:

Hi again lonely panet!

 

Your post has some great information for new collectors!

 

Heck, I may even try purchasing again from Jauce (I even think I still have some money left in their account!).

 

Of course, I still won’t spend over $150 for a tsuba!

 

Ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!

 

Onward!

 

You can find great pieces on Jauce for under that price, if you're patient enough. I got what I believe is an Azuchi-Momoyama mokko-gata tsuba (maybe early Edo) with the Maeda clan crest on it for less than 100 AUD, and that's shipping included a couple months ago.

 

[Spartancrest]

I might be straying from the original intent of this thread but what do people think of these - - things - - and the prices paid or hoped for?

 

[My opinion, total zero worth]

[Jake6500]

2 hours ago, Spartancrest said:

I might be straying from the original intent of this thread but what do people think of these - - things - - and the prices paid or hoped for?

 

[My opinion, total zero worth]

 

I see junk like this floating around on Ebay (and Jauce, to a lesser extent) all the time. It's insane to me that some of them actually sell for such a high price.

 

I could see someone new buying one of these things and not knowing any better but not for such high prices!

[Spartancrest]

"Backyard Blacksmith" has a new guard ready for the unwary https://www.jauce.com/auction/r1163312575 

 

    File or bench grinder?

It could be yours for as "little" as ¥30,000  

[Jake6500]

1 hour ago, Spartancrest said:

"Backyard Blacksmith" has a new guard ready for the unwary https://www.jauce.com/auction/r1163312575 

 

    File or bench grinder?

It could be yours for as "little" as ¥30,000  

 

I have seen other "skull" shaped tsuba but I generally don't trust them by default. It just isn't a form of iconography I associate with Japan.

[Tcat]

3 hours ago, Jake6500 said:

It just isn't a form of iconography I associate with Japan.

Curious statement… it’s a theme that crops up all the time in tosogu. 

[Matsunoki]

Skulls very common in some superb netsuke, okimono etc 

Several topics on this forum eg  (Search Nozarashi