Gunto identification

[Polaria]

So, I juts got this piece and can't really make up my mind about what I've got. There are a few things that puzzle me.

• Tsuba and kabuto-gane look well cast but still somehow "rough".
• Nakago is short and has three mekugi-ana, two are slightly larger than the one used in current handle.
• The blade is a horror show, it has a hamon that is clearly visible under good light, but it has been (re)sharpened with what looks like hand-file messing up the blade badly.

 

Now it could be a fake, but it has the look and feel or age in all parts so I doubt it's quite recent.

 

[Polaria]

Here are the pictures of the tang. Unfortunately I don't have the camera or the setup to take pictures of the blade that would be much of use.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Mei is Kaneyoshi, and appears to be Showa era. Looks like something bodged together from original parts.

[Bruce Pennington]

You'll find that the quality of the metal parts can vary, both from vendor to vendor as well as just over the span of the war.

 

Is the saya aluminum? 

[Polaria]

25 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Is the saya aluminum? 

 

It is steel and unpainted. I don't know if it was never painted at all or if someone has purposefully stripped the paint from it. There is a little bit of what might have been gold colored coating in the saya near the chape.

[Bruce Pennington]

Ah, yes we've seen that many times over the years!  I own 2 NCOs that had been painted gold.  Now that you mention it, is that tsuba painted gold, or is that just lighting effect?

[Polaria]

The tsuba seems to be just brass. Here are the pictures of the saya cap on both sides.

[robinalexander]

Hmmmmm ...nothing much to like about that Ishizuke doesn't look genuine WW2 to me.

 

But is that really a brass tip on the bottom of the saya? (Copper 95 style) ?

[Gilles]

Like John said, it seems that parts from different origins have been put together. The ishizuke is a fake, the brass type on the bottom of the saya comes from a NCO sword as Rob said. The tsuka (kabutogane and fuchi) seems genuine.  The nakago seems too short for the length of the tsuka.......

A Frankenstein sword...............!

[Polaria]

The saya is fitted to the type locking mechanism, but missing a seppa and on the blade side and thus a bit loose. I'll have to see if it was incorrectly put together.

 

I wish I could take a better picture of the blade as there is a clear hamon line, but this is the best I got for now.

[PNSSHOGUN]

The whole saya appears to be a chinese fake. If possible, seek a refund as this is not an entirely genuine WWII sword.

[Polaria]

I took it apart again and found markings on the seppa. It also matches the tsuba and kind of doesn't. I am thinking there is at least a few washers missing here.

[Bruce Pennington]

I agree with all the above.  The koiguchi and sayajiri appear to be modern reproductions.  I suspect the blade was legit and put into a variety of real and fake fittings.

 

I'm really puzzled by the tsuba/seppa set.  I THINK they are legit, but I have a kaigunto tsuba/seppa set with the exact same number - even the impartially struck "6" and small star:

[Polaria]

58 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

I agree with all the above.  The koiguchi and sayajiri appear to be modern reproductions.  I suspect the blade was legit and put into a variety of real and fake fittings.

 

I'm really puzzled by the tsuba/seppa set.  I THINK they are legit, but I have a kaigunto tsuba/seppa set with the exact same number - even the impartially struck "6" and small star

 

Now that is very strange.

 

As for the blade I found two Kaneyoshi: https://nihontoclub.com/smiths/KAN2998 and https://nihontoclub.com/smiths/KAN3072

[Conway S]

Personally, I think the kai gunto fittings are 263. I'll have to look at the tsuka and fuchi the next time I have it out to see if they have any sub assembly numbers. The nakago mune is stamped, but the numbers are squiggly and I can only clearly make out the "2." 

 

Conway

[Conway S]

@Bruce Pennington I misread your post. Did not realize you mentioned the impartially struck 6.

[Polaria]

I approached the seller suggesting that the saya might be a fake. He said it was likely not the original saya of this sword, but denied strongly that it would be fake. This is a reputable antique seller so I am willing to give him the benefit of doubt. However I do not consider the discussion over yet, so here are some better pictures of the kochi-gane, ashi and shibabiki. You can see the mouth of the saya and the ishizuke in my previous posts. Are there any clear indications one way or another that you can see? 

 

I would really much want the saya to be genuine, but I am worried about so many little details just not quite matching what I've seen in other gunto sayas.

[SteveM]

Here are a couple of Kaneyoshi inscriptions from WW2 era swords. 

 

The mei is placed above the peg hole, near the center of the blade. File marks are sloping upwards towards the ridge line. Both the "kane" (兼) and "yoshi" (吉) characters are well defined, and not overly "chippy". The patina is as one would expect on a WW2 sword. Only one peg hole, which is common as the swords were made and then shipped off to war with their owner - there wasn't any need (or time) for drastic shortening.

 

https://www.e-sword....katana/1210-1022.htm

https://www.nipponto...swords8/NT331993.htm

 

 

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Mikko,

You can clearly see the quality difference in the first photo.  The saya parts (don't know about the actual saya) are copies.  I have others on in my Fakes file similar, even with the bare saya:

[lonely panet]

3 hours ago, Polaria said:

I approached the seller suggesting that the saya might be a fake. He said it was likely not the original saya of this sword, but denied strongly that it would be fake. This is a reputable antique seller so I am willing to give him the benefit of doubt. However I do not consider the discussion over yet, so here are some better pictures of the kochi-gane, ashi and shibabiki. You can see the mouth of the saya and the ishizuke in my previous posts. Are there any clear indications one way or another that you can see? 

 

I would really much want the saya to be genuine, but I am worried about so many little details just not quite matching what I've seen in other gunto sayas.

If the dealer cant see that the saya is modern fake crap. He isn't a reputable dealer. Just someone making profit of his ignorance. Run away and save you pennys

[vajo]

Buba job mixed assembled sword. Modern chinese replica looks much more better an rhe wall 

[Polaria]

On 11/26/2024 at 5:35 PM, SteveM said:

Here are a couple of Kaneyoshi inscriptions from WW2 era swords. 

 

The mei is placed above the peg hole, near the center of the blade. File marks are sloping upwards towards the ridge line. Both the "kane" (兼) and "yoshi" (吉) characters are well defined, and not overly "chippy". The patina is as one would expect on a WW2 sword. Only one peg hole, which is common as the swords were made and then shipped off to war with their owner - there wasn't any need (or time) for drastic shortening.

 

https://www.e-sword....katana/1210-1022.htm

https://www.nipponto...swords8/NT331993.htm

 

I agree that the mei or the general state of nakago doesn't match with these. Found a bunch of mei examples form earlier Kaneyoshi. All of them were located on the side of the mekugi-ana like this blade has, but so far no mei I have found matches this one. Mostly the difference is the way the first character is written. My current theory is that the blade might predate WW2 era and be originally made / shortened for 1871, 1873 or 1877 pattern sword which had short one-hand handles.

[Stephen]

What's missing is the photos of the blade nagasa kissaki. The first photo says a lot the angei of tsuka to saya is very telling. Agree it's a Frankie. 

 

Terrible light of the tsuka it washed any color of the patina on nakago, try natural window light.

So full shot of blade no fittings,  geometry of the tip.

Oh and pic of hamachi please. 

 

[Stephen]

Stole this from another post.

A Pic like this would help.

AND the blades measurements. 

 

[Polaria]

I live in Finland so at this time of the year any "natural light" is a hard to come by. I tried the best I could, so here goes nothing...

 

The length of the nakago is just over 12 cm and the blade (measured from habaki to kissaki) is 63 cm.

[Polaria]

This is the best picture I could take of the mei and the nakago kissaki.

[Stephen]

Those help a lot. 

I think you have a shinshinto blade.

The crispness of the cut doesn't take it back any farther. 

[Stephen]

How long is it from tip to munemachi in inches 

[Polaria]

24 minutes ago, Stephen said:

How long is it from tip to munemachi in inches 

 

I don't have a measuring tape in inches, but conversion table says 63,5 cm is almost exactly 25 inches.

[Polaria]

This sword has been on and off my table for quite awhile now. From what I've gathered so far:

• Saya is probably a total fake. Details in the shibabiki and ishizuke are messy and do not look sharp enough to be genuine. Sam with kuchi-gane which also looks like attached with a wrong type of screw. Ashi is cast from one piece of metal so it doesn't fit any known type of genuine fitting. Saya tube is unpainted and the slot where to lock attaches looks unfinished.
• Tsuka is probably genuine. Kabuto-gane, menudo and fuchi look like they should with crisp detail fitting the known types. The wood, same and tsuka-ito are clearly old and belong together. Tsuka-ito is well done and both worn and tight enough to be original.
• Seppa is almost certain to be genuine.
• I don't know about the tsuba. Some of the details look really messy but it is a very good fit with the seppa.
• The blade is a mystery. It is in rough shape but the short nakago and two sets of mekugi-ana do not make any sense in a fake blade. The tsuka is made to fit a longer nakago, but the mekugi-ana in the blade and tsuka match like they should. Habaki might not be original and looks really rough. The blade is (re?)sharpened in western saber fashion bit clear bevel. There is more discussion on the blade and mei in another thread: 

 

My current best guess is that the blade might be originally made for kyu-gunto, cavalry sword, police sword or similar sword with western saber style grip. Somewhere along the line the blade was fitted with a stock shin-gunto koshirae tsuka. Original saya and possibly habaki and maybe even the tsuba was lost. The blade and surviving pieces where put together with fake stuff in effort to make a complete sword.

 

Would this make sense?