Gunto identification

[Polaria]

So, I juts got this piece and can't really make up my mind about what I've got. There are a few things that puzzle me.

• Tsuba and kabuto-gane look well cast but still somehow "rough".
• Nakago is short and has three mekugi-ana, two are slightly larger than the one used in current handle.
• The blade is a horror show, it has a hamon that is clearly visible under good light, but it has been (re)sharpened with what looks like hand-file messing up the blade badly.

 

Now it could be a fake, but it has the look and feel or age in all parts so I doubt it's quite recent.

 

[Polaria]

Here are the pictures of the tang. Unfortunately I don't have the camera or the setup to take pictures of the blade that would be much of use.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Mei is Kaneyoshi, and appears to be Showa era. Looks like something bodged together from original parts.

[Bruce Pennington]

You'll find that the quality of the metal parts can vary, both from vendor to vendor as well as just over the span of the war.

 

Is the saya aluminum? 

[Polaria]

25 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Is the saya aluminum? 

 

It is steel and unpainted. I don't know if it was never painted at all or if someone has purposefully stripped the paint from it. There is a little bit of what might have been gold colored coating in the saya near the chape.

[Bruce Pennington]

Ah, yes we've seen that many times over the years!  I own 2 NCOs that had been painted gold.  Now that you mention it, is that tsuba painted gold, or is that just lighting effect?

[Polaria]

The tsuba seems to be just brass. Here are the pictures of the saya cap on both sides.

[robinalexander]

Hmmmmm ...nothing much to like about that Ishizuke doesn't look genuine WW2 to me.

 

But is that really a brass tip on the bottom of the saya? (Copper 95 style) ?

[Gilles]

Like John said, it seems that parts from different origins have been put together. The ishizuke is a fake, the brass type on the bottom of the saya comes from a NCO sword as Rob said. The tsuka (kabutogane and fuchi) seems genuine.  The nakago seems too short for the length of the tsuka.......

A Frankenstein sword...............!

[Polaria]

The saya is fitted to the type locking mechanism, but missing a seppa and on the blade side and thus a bit loose. I'll have to see if it was incorrectly put together.

 

I wish I could take a better picture of the blade as there is a clear hamon line, but this is the best I got for now.

[PNSSHOGUN]

The whole saya appears to be a chinese fake. If possible, seek a refund as this is not an entirely genuine WWII sword.

[Polaria]

I took it apart again and found markings on the seppa. It also matches the tsuba and kind of doesn't. I am thinking there is at least a few washers missing here.

[Bruce Pennington]

I agree with all the above.  The koiguchi and sayajiri appear to be modern reproductions.  I suspect the blade was legit and put into a variety of real and fake fittings.

 

I'm really puzzled by the tsuba/seppa set.  I THINK they are legit, but I have a kaigunto tsuba/seppa set with the exact same number - even the impartially struck "6" and small star:

[Polaria]

58 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

I agree with all the above.  The koiguchi and sayajiri appear to be modern reproductions.  I suspect the blade was legit and put into a variety of real and fake fittings.

 

I'm really puzzled by the tsuba/seppa set.  I THINK they are legit, but I have a kaigunto tsuba/seppa set with the exact same number - even the impartially struck "6" and small star

 

Now that is very strange.

 

As for the blade I found two Kaneyoshi: https://nihontoclub.com/smiths/KAN2998 and https://nihontoclub.com/smiths/KAN3072

[Conway S]

Personally, I think the kai gunto fittings are 263. I'll have to look at the tsuka and fuchi the next time I have it out to see if they have any sub assembly numbers. The nakago mune is stamped, but the numbers are squiggly and I can only clearly make out the "2." 

 

Conway

[Conway S]

@Bruce Pennington I misread your post. Did not realize you mentioned the impartially struck 6.

[Polaria]

I approached the seller suggesting that the saya might be a fake. He said it was likely not the original saya of this sword, but denied strongly that it would be fake. This is a reputable antique seller so I am willing to give him the benefit of doubt. However I do not consider the discussion over yet, so here are some better pictures of the kochi-gane, ashi and shibabiki. You can see the mouth of the saya and the ishizuke in my previous posts. Are there any clear indications one way or another that you can see? 

 

I would really much want the saya to be genuine, but I am worried about so many little details just not quite matching what I've seen in other gunto sayas.

[SteveM]

Here are a couple of Kaneyoshi inscriptions from WW2 era swords. 

 

The mei is placed above the peg hole, near the center of the blade. File marks are sloping upwards towards the ridge line. Both the "kane" (兼) and "yoshi" (吉) characters are well defined, and not overly "chippy". The patina is as one would expect on a WW2 sword. Only one peg hole, which is common as the swords were made and then shipped off to war with their owner - there wasn't any need (or time) for drastic shortening.

 

https://www.e-sword....katana/1210-1022.htm

https://www.nipponto...swords8/NT331993.htm

 

 

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Mikko,

You can clearly see the quality difference in the first photo.  The saya parts (don't know about the actual saya) are copies.  I have others on in my Fakes file similar, even with the bare saya:

[lonely panet]

3 hours ago, Polaria said:

I approached the seller suggesting that the saya might be a fake. He said it was likely not the original saya of this sword, but denied strongly that it would be fake. This is a reputable antique seller so I am willing to give him the benefit of doubt. However I do not consider the discussion over yet, so here are some better pictures of the kochi-gane, ashi and shibabiki. You can see the mouth of the saya and the ishizuke in my previous posts. Are there any clear indications one way or another that you can see? 

 

I would really much want the saya to be genuine, but I am worried about so many little details just not quite matching what I've seen in other gunto sayas.

If the dealer cant see that the saya is modern fake crap. He isn't a reputable dealer. Just someone making profit of his ignorance. Run away and save you pennys

[vajo]

Buba job mixed assembled sword. Modern chinese replica looks much more better an rhe wall