Water wheel and cherry blossom

[KungFooey]

Hi all,

 

Just grabbed this on auction for about a hundred bucks so very happy!

I'd seen this design in books a couple of times and always liked it.
It's missing a couple of brass inlays and probably a later copy of the versions I saw but I think it's still antique.

 

(The gnarly old hands aren't mine! Pics are the seller's - I haven't gotten it yet.)

 

Best,

Dee

 

ps: dimensions:

height: 7,2㎝

width: 6.95㎝

thickness: 0.4㎝

weight: 88g 

Edited November 22 by KungFooey
Additional info

[Spartancrest]

https://varshavskyco...collection/tsu-0356/

Two from https://klefischauktionen.wordpress.com/

 

I am keeping my gnarly old hands out of this! 

[kyushukairu]

A fairly pleasing design. It would most likely be attributed to a swordsmith (tōshō 刀匠) or possibly even 'Umetada' (埋忠), [Umetada Tadatsugu (埋忠忠次) did such sukashi work]

[Dan tsuba]

Hey Deanna!

 

Very nice tsuba for a great price!

 

If you know how to discern real tsuba from fake or reproduction tsuba, there are still deals to be had out there!

 

And yes, I have a few trusted sellers out there who I have bought real antique tsuba from the Edo period and they give a fair deal (and most of those dealers are in Japan).

 

So I tend to buy from those sellers again and again.

 

And especially purchasing those tsuba with a limited budget (like I have!).

 

I try not to spend over $150.00 for a tsuba.

 

But sometimes I do go over that amount (but not by much), especially when the piece calls out to me to just go ahead and buy it (which has happened before!).

 

Keep on looking for tsuba that you can afford and then learn from the piece.

 

Like I said before (somewhere!), this is a great hobby!

 

Onward!

[Dereks]

@Dan tsuba I’m new to this hobby, but I don’t agree with you on that point. If you’re serious about this, I don’t think constantly looking for tsuba you can afford is the best way to learn. What’s wrong with buying a $500 tsuba instead of 2–3 $150 tsuba? Don’t you think you could learn more from better-quality pieces?

 

Ebay, Yahoo, and Jauce are full of lower-level tsuba. A forum member once gave me similar advice regarding swords. He told me that if I was serious about collecting, instead of buying $1k–$2k swords, I should save up and aim for better names or schools. That way, I’d have higher-quality pieces in my collection(maybe not 10 but only 3) and could learn much more from them. 

 

I don’t know how many tsuba you currently have, but wouldn’t you rather have only 5 Tokubetsu Hozon papered ones instead of 50 lower-level ones? (I'm not qualified to judge, it's just a question) 

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello Derek!

 

You make a valid point and thank you for your opinion.

 

However, it all comes down to what the collector can afford at a certain time.

 

I don’t have deep pockets.

 

I live from one social security check to the other.

 

I can only afford so much a month to spend on my hobby, because before you know it any extra money I have is gone and I have to start over with the cash that I get each month.

 

Yes, with the money I have spent over the years with my mediocre tsuba I could probably have bought only a few really prized tsuba!

 

But I would have to lock those prized tsuba away in a bank safety deposit box!

 

Unlike probably many tsuba collectors, I don’t buy my tsuba to resell them and make money!

 

Instead, my inexpensive tsuba are hanging in several rooms in my house for me to enjoy on a daily basis!

 

And someone has to give those lower level and mediocre tsuba a good home!

 

And who is to say that you can't learn as much from a mediocre tsuba as you can from a prized tsuba?

 

We all collect in our own way!

 

Onward!

 

 

 

Onward!

 

 

 

[Jake6500]

51 minutes ago, Dereks said:

@Dan tsuba I’m new to this hobby, but I don’t agree with you on that point. If you’re serious about this, I don’t think constantly looking for tsuba you can afford is the best way to learn. What’s wrong with buying a $500 tsuba instead of 2–3 $150 tsuba? Don’t you think you could learn more from better-quality pieces?

 

Ebay, Yahoo, and Jauce are full of lower-level tsuba. A forum member once gave me similar advice regarding swords. He told me that if I was serious about collecting, instead of buying $1k–$2k swords, I should save up and aim for better names or schools. That way, I’d have higher-quality pieces in my collection(maybe not 10 but only 3) and could learn much more from them. 

 

I don’t know how many tsuba you currently have, but wouldn’t you rather have only 5 Tokubetsu Hozon papered ones instead of 50 lower-level ones? (I'm not qualified to judge, it's just a question) 

 

 

 

I agree with this, however beware that higher price doesn't always mean better quality!

 

I have no issues with paying more for quality but it takes some time to train your eye to be able to spot mid-high level work and there are also over-priced pieces floating about. Train your eye to recognize quality before spending!

 

I've only just started to reach the point where I can identify the higher quality stuff by eye and distinguish it from mid to low level work. I did well with my last couple of purchases and I was willing to pay a bit more for them, but I've also had some solid purchases under $150. Price is not everything and can be deceiving.

 

 

 

 

[Dereks]

@Dan tsuba Thank you for the explanation. I think I’ve got it. But if you buy one tsuba a month, doesn’t that mean you’re addicted?  

 

 

[Dereks]

1 minute ago, Jake6500 said:

 

I agree with this, however beware that higher price doesn't always mean better quality!

 

I have no issues with paying more for quality but it takes some time to train your eye to be able to spot mid-high level work and there are also over-priced pieces floating about. Train your eye to recognize quality before spending!

 

I've only just started to reach the point where I can identify the higher quality stuff by eye and distinguish it from mid to low level work. I did well with my last couple of purchases and I was willing to pay a bit more for them, but I've also had some solid purchases under $150. Price is not everything and can be deceiving.

 

 

 

 

 

This was exactly my point! If I don’t handle some good pieces, how can I differentiate them from lower-level work? Pictures sometimes don’t do them justice, and I can’t zoom in enough to see the details. 

[Dan tsuba]

Hey Derek!

 

You stated is some of your previous posts-

 

"A forum member once gave me similar advice regarding swords. He told me that if I was serious about collecting, instead of buying $1k–$2k swords, I should save up and aim for better names or schools. That way, I’d have higher-quality pieces in my collection(maybe not 10 but only 3) and could learn much more from them."

 

And- 

 

“If I don’t handle some good pieces, how can I differentiate them from lower-level work? Pictures sometimes don’t do them justice, and I can’t zoom in enough to see the details.”

 

Again, it all comes down to the dollar bill!

 

Are you saying that someone should spend about $5000 dollars (or more) on a tsuba so they can tell the difference between an expensive (possibly papered) tsuba and an inexpensive mediocre tsuba (substitute sword for tsuba to suite your needs)?

 

Who sold you on that idea (maybe a dealer?).

 

And yes (to answer your question in one of your previous posts), it probably does mean I am addicted.

 

But in a good sense.

 

It is an educational addiction!

 

Onward!

[Jake6500]

41 minutes ago, Dereks said:

 

This was exactly my point! If I don’t handle some good pieces, how can I differentiate them from lower-level work? Pictures sometimes don’t do them justice, and I can’t zoom in enough to see the details. 

 

It's a tricky balance. What I would say is try to do as much research on a piece as you can before buying and try to build an ongoing digital catalogue of works you've encountered.

 

Past forum threads are always a great source of information when searching for more information about a piece, school of craftmanship or specific artist/mei.

[Dereks]

39 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

Are you saying that someone should spend about $5000 dollars (or more) on a tsuba so they can tell the difference between an expensive (possibly papered) tsuba and an inexpensive mediocre tsuba (substitute sword for tsuba to suite your needs)?

 

Who sold you on that idea (maybe a dealer?).

 

 

No, not a dealer, but this very forum. Actually, the idea was given about swords, not tsuba, but I thought the same rule might apply to both. The idea was that instead of buying many $1k–$2k swords, I should buy one really good sword. - It’s quite a harmless addiction, I must say.

[Dan tsuba]

Hello again Derek!

 

You stated-

 

“No, not a dealer, but this very forum. Actually, the idea was given about swords, not tsuba, but I thought the same rule might apply to both. The idea was that instead of buying many $1k–$2k swords, I should buy one really good sword. - It’s quite a harmless addiction, I must say.”

 

"It's quite a harmless addiction, I must say", well that must be nice!

 

(and just to clarify, there are several forum members who are dealers!)

 

Your bank account must be in a lot better shape than mine! 

 

Anyway, enjoy your hobby.

 

And keep learning from it!

 

That is the key point, no matter what different collectors and individuals can afford!

 

Onward!

 

[Dereks]

@Dan tsuba

 

"It's quite a harmless addiction, I must say" Just to be clear, it was meant for you. 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Thanks Derek,

 

I must have misinterpreted your statement.

 

Onward!

[KungFooey]

4 hours ago, Jake6500 said:

I agree with this, however beware that higher price doesn't always mean better quality!

Bingo.

 

Honestly? I wish I had never mentioned the price as that's hijacked and derailed the topic of the guard itself. I bought it because I love it - not because it was cheap.

 

Believe me, I looked long and hard at this guard and read about similar pieces before buying it. When something is too good to be true, it usually is - but this time I think I've picked up a decent little piece at well below dealer prices.
I see good carving technique, good use of brass inlay, a nice even patina with virtually no rust and nothing which sets off any alarm bells.

 

Was it worth the risk of even $100? I can only confirm that when I get it in hand.

 

Now, if anyone beyond Dale and Kyle can tell me something about MY ACTUAL GUARD, that would be great. Otherwise, please take your boy's peeing contest somewhere else.

 

Dee

[Jake6500]

54 minutes ago, KungFooey said:

Bingo.

 

Honestly? I wish I had never mentioned the price as that's hijacked and derailed the topic of the guard itself. I bought it because I love it - not because it was cheap.

 

Believe me, I looked long and hard at this guard and read about similar pieces before buying it. When something is too good to be true, it usually is - but this time I think I've picked up a decent little piece at well below dealer prices.
I see good carving technique, good use of brass inlay, a nice even patina with virtually no rust and nothing which sets off any alarm bells.

 

Was it worth the risk of even $100? I can only confirm that when I get it in hand.

 

Now, if anyone beyond Dale and Kyle can tell me something about MY ACTUAL GUARD, that would be great. Otherwise, please take your boy's peeing contest somewhere else.

 

Dee

 

I think it is worth the money spent, personally.

 

Did you pick this up on Jauce? Because if so, I was also keeping my eye on this exact piece...

[Dan tsuba]

Hi Deanna!

 

I backed your play (refer to my first post on this thread).

 

The peeing contest was started by someone else.

 

Sometimes, unfortunately, that is how this forum goes!

 

Onward!

[KungFooey]

On 11/23/2024 at 10:18 AM, Jake6500 said:

 

I think it is worth the money spent, personally.

 

Did you pick this up on Jauce? Because if so, I was also keeping my eye on this exact piece...

Not Jauce, I go straight to the auctions on Yahoo. My brother is in the military in Japan so I can get things mailed to him.

[KungFooey]

Well, it seems even nicer in hand - very happy with this!

 

Dee

[KungFooey]

[Winchester]

I believe the overall theme is tranquility and resilience; basically sending good vibes out to the universe. 
 

It’s a good message and thank you for sharing.

[KungFooey]

On 11/24/2024 at 7:47 PM, Winchester said:

I believe the overall theme is tranquility and resilience; basically sending good vibes out to the universe. 
 

It’s a good message and thank you for sharing.

Good to know! I'm even more glad I got it now. The universe is in major need of good vibes.

[Tim Evans]

An interesting comment in the Varshavsky collection reference from Dale.

 

Provenance: Robert E. Haynes, Mark Weisman.

This is what shibuiswords.com says about this tsuba:

“A very unusual iron plate tsuba. The solid plate is carved with waves on both sides. A cherry bloom in sukashi, lower left, and the right third of the plate in openwork with design of a water wheel. The rim with some iron bones. The hitsu-ana is original but the shape may have been slightly changed. One would expect this to be the work of the early Edo period, but the age of the walls of the sukashi would suggest that this is a work of the middle Muromachi period. This must be the forerunner for the Edo examples we see of this type of design.” (Haynes) a look-a-like tsuba in Haynes Catalog #5, 1983, pp. 20-21, №44: “Typical later Heianjo brass inlay example

 

 

Just for context, Robert (Bob) Haynes is one of the foremost Japanese sword fittings authorities in the US, having studied with Dr. Kazutaro Torigoye in Japan in the 1960's. There is a lot of useful tsuba material by Bob on the Shibui Swords site, Elliott and Bob collaborate a lot since they live near each other. 

 

[Tim Evans]

Bob Haynes interviews, well worth watching.

 

BIG posted this link in the Events section:

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/50544-robert-haynes/

 

 

Or direct link for all 5 videos:

https://ificah.de/interviews/

[Rivkin]

Per Bob Haynes this one is early Shonai.

[GRC]

It's definitely an Edo period tsuba that was made in some quantity.

Especially given the "peace and tranquility theme"

 

"Kyoto area" seems reasonable... but could have been made anywhere really, and likely by a "shop smith" from an atelier of some sort.

...which fits with Haynes' attribution to "later Heianjo" attribution. *Note that people once called sukashi tsuba made in the Kyoto area "Heianjo sukashi tsuba" because they were assumed to be from the Heian area (location not time period)... which also means that it wasn't a specific "school" per se, just likely made in that area according to the trends in "tsuba fashion" of the time.

The broad "Edo period, unsigned Shoami" bin would also be a likely default attribution by an organization like the NBTHK.

 

There's no way this was made in the Muromachi period. There were no sukashi tsuba that looked like this before the Edo period. Certain aspects of it yes (like the dot inlays), but not the whole package together, especially the carved waves and that type of sukashi aesthetic.

That's pure supposition and fantasy on Haynes' part... largely because he's following the hypotheses of Wakiyama in the early 1900s, which later became doctrine through the writings of Torigoye and also Sasano (who wrote in English and therefore established these ideas for English speaking collectors and enthusiasts). 

 

...and hate to break it to you, but the site that was listed as an excellent reference from the foremost expert and associate, is rife with errors and false attributions for unsigned pieces.

They are certainly a wealth of knowledge on signed pieces of the Edo period (for which there are often records and supporting period documentation of smiths and their genealogies), but are often egregiously wrong on many of their statements and attributions for unsigned pre-Edo pieces.

 

I don't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers, but the we need to start course correcting some of these false assertions as a community.

It's the only way we'll be able to make any progress in this field that still has so many unknowns.

 

oh and good morning everyone, hope you all are having a lovely weekend  

[sabi]

Great post Glen, 

 

I couldn't help but laugh when I read the "middle Muromachi" attribution and citing the age of the sukashi walls to arrive at this conclusion.  You can get tsuba to rust very easily, and using that as a kantei point is shocking.  Even moreso when ignoring the aesthetic principles and overall execution that no doubt place it in a much later time.

[GRC]

lol thanks Evan ... "rusty sukashi walls" as justification makes me laugh and cringe all at the same time 

or "don't clean the rust away from the inner walls of the sukashi, otherwise you won't be able to tell how old it is"... ughhh

[Iaido dude]

Glen, would you do us the honor of starting a new NMB post on the topic of the kind of potential pitfalls inherent in relying on received wisdom from prior generations of tsuba scholars? I think it's an important topic. I happen to agree with you. However, I fear that Deanna's post has gone off track from her original request for what information the community can provide on her new tsuba.