Expert knowledge and experience

[reinhard]

"There will always be a steady flow of Tadayoshi, Ko-Mihara, Bungo Takeda, Shinto Waks, Uda, etc. These aren't going anywhere, they constitute the majority of the items exchanged. The pressure concentrates at the top of the field, this is normal and healthy."

 

This is where ignorance and misunderstanding of nihon-to starts.

A masterpiece of shodai Tadayoshi of Hizen, a masterpiece of Ko-Mihara Masaie, a wakizashi-masterpiece of Nanki Shigekuni can equal and even surpass a blade by Ko-Bizen Tomonari in quality and in even in market price.

What matters is the quality of the individual blade and its condition.

Those who can't tell the difference might better focus on used cars as a field of investing money.

 

BTW Whining about the fact, that there are no Leonardos or Caravaggios to find online in Italy for a "reasonable" price is....

 

reinhard

 

 

[nulldevice]

1 hour ago, Natichu said:

I believe you can access it on the Internet Archive, but also here (a bit more user friendly):

 

https://onihonto.com...onto-ca-yuhindo-com/

 

I believe both are lacking many of the photos, but the text is there. 

Thank you so much, I'm already reading some articles and learning so much. 
 

This truly is a treasure trove of information. Thanks as well @GeorgeLuucas, I have both sites bookmarked for lots of future reading. 

[Rivkin]

In every collecting field there are two choices.

You can make it about the objects. Beauty, rarity, historical importance - whatever is more attractive to you.

Or you can make it about you being the elite connoisseur who knows "how to collect" and has a unique (no doubt inherited from deep aristocracy on the mother's side) level of cultural perception unavailable to others.

 

Yes, 99.9% of nihonto is probably of little interest to a serious collector, but one has to arrive to this feeling through experience and exploration. Its a long, beautiful and unfortunately extremely expensive path that should not be undertaken in search of "elitism". Enjoy your level, enjoy your purchases, enjoy your discoveries. Everything else is mostly irrelevant.

 

[Alex A]

What Thomas S said.

 

No other points to make.

 

Rinse Wash repeat.

[Hoshi]

Quote

 

This is where ignorance and misunderstanding of nihon-to starts.

A masterpiece of shodai Tadayoshi of Hizen, a masterpiece of Ko-Mihara Masaie, a wakizashi-masterpiece of Nanki Shigekuni can equal and even surpass a blade by Ko-Bizen Tomonari in quality and in even in market price.

 

 

Oh come on. You know better. 

 

- "on average, men are taller than women"

 

- "Not true! look at this seven feet tall dutch lady!" 

 

- "Surely you didn't know about the mere existence of the seven feet tall dutch lady, how ignorant! your theory is disproven!"

 

...

 

Quote

What matters is the quality of the individual blade and its condition.

 

I find this view overly simplistic, but it is a matter of personal preference.

 

For the market, however, while "demonstration of virtuosity" is the major factor, it is not the only one that matter. The extant by which a field has been shaped by a virtuoso, let's call this "the historical impact of virtuosity" is at least second in importance. This is why school founders are so highly valued. Naturally, age, rarity, provenance, etc, obviously factor in as well. 

 

At the end, quality correlates with attribution. Same with fine arts. You go down one level and you get 'Studio work'.

 

Attribution is the best predictor of quality (+/- condition), unsurprisingly, drunk Kiyomaro aside. 

 

 Anyway, you can cherry-pick the best outliers from the names I cited, but even if you do, these smiths still live in a different world. 

 

% = (TJ+Jubi+Jubun+Kokuho+Gyobutsu)/Juyo

Ko-Mihara Masaie: 37.5%

Nanki Shigekuni: 28.6%

Shodai Hizen Tadayoshi: 12.7%

...

 

Ko-Bizen Tomonari: 257%

 

Quote

...quality and in even in market price.

 

Let's trade! 

 

[Tohagi]

I love oeï Mihara Masaïe...

 

Maybe people learn to love what they understand? 

Very hard positions here sometimes. 

 

Best,

Éric 

[reinhard]

"You can make it about the objects. Beauty, rarity, historical importance - whatever is more attractive to you." (Kirill)

 

Crucial points.

 

In order to understand and appreciate the beauty and technical quality of a blade you need your own compass resulting from experience.

You don't need to own masterpieces for studying and learning; only very few people can afford this method.

 

As far as rarity is concerned, Homma Junji sensei was clear:

Look for blades with typical features! Searching for mavericks will blur your vision.

 

Historical importance is no reliable advisor for the average student.

This belongs to the field of historians and Nihon-To researchers.

An extreme example you can find is a Juyo Token by Sanjo Chikamura with the mei "Chikamura tatematsuru (same kanji as "kami").

The blade was retempered long ago and is a mere shadow of its former self.

The mei however is of great importance, for it proofs another Sanjo blade to be gimei:

A true Sanjo blade with the mei "Munechika mura-kami" which was always dubious.

With the help of the retempered blade it was possible to proof the "Mune"-character was a later addition.

Therefore its historical value and its designation as Juyo Token.

It doesn't make sense a blade like this is in private possession.

 

"% = (TJ+Jubi+Jubun+Kokuho+Gyobutsu)/Juyo
Ko-Mihara Masaie: 37.5%
Nanki Shigekuni: 28.6%
Shodai Hizen Tadayoshi: 12.7%
Ko-Bizen Tomonari: 257%"

(Chris)

 

This is what I mean when I say you need your own compass as far as quality is concerned.

If you don't have one, you end up up with strange statistics like these.

Comparing the handful of zaimei blades of Ko-Bizen Tomonari with the many works of shodai Tadayoshi or Nanki Shigekuni still existing is misleading.

For those of you who sneer at the term "Sue-Bizen", f.e., I recommend to have a closer look at the blade recently designated TokubetsuJuyoToken by Ukyo-no-Suke Katsumitsu.

It is described in detail in the latest "Token-Bijutsu"-magazine of the NBTHK.

 

reinhard

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rivkin]

Its an old discussion which has no clear solution.

For myself, I will take the top 1% of Sue Bizen over average and below Ichimonji anytime of the day. However, unless this 1% has Juyo papers I objectively cannot resell Sue Bizen for anything comparable to Ichimonji.

It is just not happening in real life. Paper level+attribution+nagasa+condition dictate the market, except for 1% of buyers who don't care about the market and 5% of dealers who have brand recognition sufficient to overcome the bias. One can also lament the arguments "Its only Hozon/NTHK/TH/Juyo and not TJ", but they are also market reality. Believing that's not how it should be does not make it so... Until Russian collectors came to market everyone accepted as a sign of professionalism quoting painters in dollars per square cm.

 

There is a related concept "attribution is quality assessment", which I believe works for some names but not others. There is a hard ceiling for things like Taima above which it becomes Yukimitsu. There is no hard ceiling for Senjuin since its usually strictly feature based attribution, but alas again the market accounts for many people believing Yamato as a whole is a quality assessment and not the best one. 

 

And unfortunately for a beginner the belief "they called it Shimada but its a prize blade better than Sadamune" is just a good sign he is enthusiastic about the field, but probably lacks maturity in it.

 

And personally I like rarity. I am always found by blades like unusual chokuto, unlisted smiths, custom works and weird utsushi. They are interesting, they are puzzling and that's another pleasure of collecting.

[Mushin]

What a great and interesting thread. Some great posts here and really awesome observations. I agree with Kirill: there is no clear solution to some of this debate. So much of collecting is like that old saying my mother had: "'It's all of matter of taste,' said the lady after kissing the monkey's bottom." And it is all a matter of taste. There are some obvious agreed on standards and facts, yes, but these shift over time. So, if you believe -- as some die-hard collectors do -- that everything after 1394 is Shinto, then even the most astounding Tadayoshi or Sukehiro or Kotetsu blade will not convince you that the sword is anything more than a nice "newish" folded, sharpened piece of steel. "Cute," as one Ko-Koto enthusiast commented about my Nosada tanto when I showed it to him years ago. On the other hand, if you believe, as some collectors do, that blades without verifiable signatures, are just a blank canvas on to which so-called experts can project their opinions, then nothing without a mei will move you, no matter how stunning the work, because -- as  the Asahi Token website says -- "No inscription is no inscription, and it is impossible to determine the author."  So - one more cliche - beauty really is in the eye of the beholder.

But this thread started out about  the market. And the market and taste don't always live in the same neighborhood. So, contrary to the views of Mr. Nakahara (of The Facts and Fundamental's of Japanese Swords, and the Asahi Token website,) a TokuJu O-suriage Ko-Bizen Masatsune Tachi will have no shortage of buyers and will not stay on the market very long, if it even goes to the market in the first place. whereas a good Shodai Tadayoshi might sit around for weeks or longer on a website before it is picked up. This has more to do with the market emotions -- supply and demand, perceived rarity, desirability and exclusivity -- than any comment on quality.

And I agree with everybody who says, "collect what you like;" "look for the best condition you can find at your budget;" "buy the sword, not the papers."  It is all well and good and true, because collecting is personal. But when the time comes that you might want to sell that piece or trade it for something better, it's is another story entirely. Now you are entering the world of the market. And again, I agree with Kirill: For the marketplace,  attribution is quality, attribution is value, top tier papers are both, and that leads us back to the opening question of Lurkez. Since this thread started, I spoke to some dealer/broker friends in the U.S., Europe and Japan and all agree that those amazing pieces from the Kamakura and Nanbokucho like we see in books are becoming harder and harder to find. Many trusted and known collectors are now looking for them and they must put word out that they want them. Then they wait. And when a Juyo Hiromitsu becomes available, it does not go on a website; It is offered at steep prices directly to those collectors who have been waiting, bypassing the open market. This is hardly surprising. Thus, as I said in my earlier posts, yes, Lukrez's observations are largely true. But as the old cliche (God, I am full of them today) goes, "the Market abhors a vacuum." So, when the supply of one commodity runs low, the market looks for the next big thing to fill it, such as works that were previously overlooked or taken for granted, like Ukyo no Suke Katusmitsu, and other top Sue Bizen works. Then lo and behold, prices for Sue Bizen works start to climb and become desirable. Just look at the prices of good Bizen moroha tanto. A few years ago you could pick these up for between $2000 and $8000 (unless it had a zokumyo-mei Yosozaemon signature.) Today those prices -- from what I can see -- have doubled. Eventually these too will be even scarcer than they are today and thus more desirable and collectors will leave word with dealers wanting one and soon you won't see them on websites either. It's the market equivalent of the circle of life.  In some ways, the market can be both cruel and democratic. But it's always been that way, responsive to trends and ever-shifting tastes of collectors, and kindest to those with the most cash. 

[Lukrez]

I like to thank you for the numerous feedback, great clarifications, and insights!