Yagyu? A newbie can't tell.

[KungFooey]

Hi All,

Guard Girl back again to pick your brains.

 

i was looking at this big heavy guard and wondered if it was a 'yagyu' type?

It measures 6.95cm× 6.8cm

thickness 0.55cm  and 95g

 

thanks again!

Dee

[Jesta]

I can’t help on the school, but the design is really nice. Looks like sun rays piercing the clouds… 

[BIG]

No yagyu but ohno..

 

 

[Spartancrest]

Or Myochin? 

This one a papered Myochin    https://nihonto.com/12-2-23/

 

I have a feeling this could be by a number of schools - a bit of copying went on.

 

Hoan? 

  https://www.tsubacollector.com/4.html

 

 

A Yagyu one.

 from the same thread as Peter showed https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/49639-ohno-kuruma-tsuba-compared-to-kanayama/

 

What does that give us? Ohno/ONO ,  Myochin , Hoan & Yagyu    I am sure we can find others.

 

 

[BIG]

At least a NORISUKE futagoyama.. ( and found currans TH yagyu )

 

http://www.tsubacollector.com/4.html

[BIG]

Dee, Mr. Hunt calls them GROUP OF OWARI TSUBA, a good definition 

 

 

[Jake6500]

I'm hardly as much of an expert as Dale or Peter here but my first instinct was also that this is an Ohno school tsuba. 

 

Ohno tsuba tend to be thicker than most other tsuba of similar styles so when you get to the 5mm+ range it is likely an Ohno piece as opposed to Kanayama, Yagyu, etc.

 

That said however, this would have been a pretty common design and it might be hard to distinguish between Yagyu, Ohno, Myochin or Kanayama with such a design.

[BIG]

Jake, unfortunately I am not an expert, only a yagyu and futagoyama collector.

 

 

[Spartancrest]

1 hour ago, Jake6500 said:

Dale is hardly an expert 

By rearranging a few words in the quote from Jake, to what it reads now.  It sums me up nicely! 

I am able to find examples that might be of assistance - but generally I know only enough to know where to look!

 

EX = former   PERT = quite small and neat, and you think it is attractive [as in posterior]. So an EXPERT is by definition someone who used to have a nice bum but has gone a bit flabby [yes that still sums me up!] 

[Jake6500]

Dale and Peter even exhibit modesty befitting of their expertise!

 

You are both experts compared to me, that is for sure!

[Iaido dude]

I have seen this on Jauce and discussed with Steve Waszak. If this is a Yagyu, it is a late one. The surface treatment is very coarse, which is not the way the "sandy," but smoother and uniform appearance of Yagyu plates appear. That uniform coarseness is not produced by tekkotsu, which are absent on this tsuba. The motif and composition are not one of those 269 designs in Haynes' Yagyu Design Book (I have confirmed this). It is also thinner than an early Ohno, which is nearly always >6 mm at the rim. My Ohno Kuruma 8-spokes tsuba (see Peter's insert of my original post) is 7 mm at the mimi and 4 mm at the seppa dai, which is a consequence of the steep step-off as in the current tsuba under consideration. The central 6-spoke motif is likewise sunken for a powerful appearance. If not for the coarse surface treatment, which likely reflects corrosion of the original patina, I would have seriously considered this tsuba because of its Buddhist iconography (6 paths of karma)--a specific and focused collecting interest for me.

 

If it speaks to you, that is all that really matters in the end. This would be a low-risk, low-cost acquisition--also a study piece to examine in hand.

[Dan tsuba]

Hello again Deanna!

 

I would like to refer you to this thread (a thread that you were the author of-well done!)-

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/50495-sand-cast/

 

and my posts on that thread dated Friday (Nov 15) at 7:17AM and Friday (Nov 15) at 2:21PM.

 

I know that me stating and showing stuff that goes against the status quo on this forum is always risky!

 

And yes, the tsuba you showed has a few good (small and not deep) tagane-ato punch marks in the seppa-dai (which could indicate that the tsuba is a hand forged tsuba).

 

Could those punch marks be made or appear on a sand cast cast-iron tsuba?

 

For the answer to that I refer you to this thread-

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/47640-tagane-ato-punch-marks-on-tsuba/

 

But those posts are just my opinion on the subject!

 

Oh no!  I can see all the downvotes coming in for me now!

 

But when you go against the status quo thinking on this forum, you must prepare yourself for all sorts of negativity  (as I have experienced in the past-but then again maybe this forum is now changing for the better!).

 

Oh well, keep posting stuff and learning from the replies to your posts.

 

Tsuba collecting is a fun and super interesting hobby!

 

Onward!

[Iaido dude]

Here is an Ohno that has been cycling on Jauce, which I am a bit suspicious of because of the surface treatment. Can’t tell if it’s just a photography issue. It looks to have been waxed, although not as jet black as some of them and some rust color is coming through. This seller does not routinely blacken his sukashi tsuba, so there is some hope. There are scratches around the seppa dai on the ura, but these could be smoothed over gently with some horn, I suppose. The dimensions are consistent with Ohno and there is the characteristic sinking of the central motif below the rim to give that powerful feeling that we experience with a dished tsuba. I think that the design is a bit stiff, but wouldn’t be a dealbreaker on its own because I like the strong and stark martial quality of this guard. 

 

https://www.jauce.com/auction/f1160853554

[KungFooey]

Huge thank you to everyone who has commented! This is a big learning curve for me but you guys are making it a fun ride! 
I passed on the guard I first asked about as I definitely want a Yagyu design. Trouble is I have no access to "269 designs in Haynes' Yagyu Design Book"

mentioned by Iaido Guy so I only know the basic famous few.

 

I also found these on auctions but none look 'just right! 🤔

[ROKUJURO]

Deanne,

The second TSUBA looks more like an OWARI, TODA school, to me.

[KungFooey]

Just now, ROKUJURO said:

Deanne,

The second TSUBA looks more like an OWARI, TODA school, to me.

Thanks Jean!

[Spartancrest]

I have to say the seller with the kettle/pot guard is having trouble making up his mind just which school he thinks it belongs to. -  Ono, Yagyu, Kanayama, Owari, Akasaka, Higo. This seems to cover a lot of possibilities! 

 

https://www.bakumats...1515340973&La=J#here  There are 90 Yagyu designs in this "Manuscripts of Yagyu Tsuba-gata" I am sure you can copy the page images for reference - The original book is well out of copyright and the company has sold their book copy in any case. 

 

https://www.ebay.it/itm/176628474283  I don't know if this book has many tsuba images, perhaps some of the other members could comment? 

[KungFooey]

4 minutes ago, Spartancrest said:

I have to say the seller with the kettle/pot guard is having trouble making up his mind just which school he thinks it belongs to. -  Ono, Yagyu, Kanayama, Owari, Akasaka, Higo. This seems to cover a lot of possibilities! 

 

https://www.bakumats...1515340973&La=J#here  There are 90 Yagyu designs in this "Manuscripts of Yagyu Tsuba-gata" I am sure you can copy the page images for reference - The original book is well out of copyright and the company has sold their book copy in any case. 

 

https://www.ebay.it/itm/176628474283  I don't know if this book has many tsuba images, perhaps some of the other members could comment? 

You're a star, Dale!

[Spartancrest]

Deep, deep pockets papered Yagyu tsuba  https://www.jauce.com/auction/h1160862639    

and a similar past auction  https://www.jauce.com/auction/w1073080451    

 https://www.jauce.com/auction/m1160847457   Papered Yagyu  but I would have guessed cast!     Seams, crack or folded forge fault?

 

Papered Ohno/Ono  that sold for far less?  https://www.jauce.com/auction/r1148317429    

 

 but when did Ōno suddenly become Ohno I must have missed the memo - I will stick with Sasano's spelling [ŌNO] until he tells me differently 

[BIG]

Wonne beh a star too..

 

1. Art And The Sword 1990 Volume three // 21 yagyu and Norisuke Tsuba, 2 sketches

 

2. SELECTIVE FINE Japanese SWORDS FROM EUROPEAN N.B.T.H.K. COLLECTIONS // 21 yagyu and Norisuke Tsuba, 19 sketches from the NBTHK yagyu sketchbook

 

3. MASTERPIECES FROM THE SASANO COLLECTION part one // 31 yagyu tsuba

 

4. Meito in North America and yagyu tsuba AMERICAN BRANCH OF THE NBTHK //9 yagyu tsuba and 8 sketches from the Haynes yagyu design book

 

5. Iron Tsuba - the works of the exhibition KUROGANE NO HANA // 3 yagyu tsuba and great Tsuba reference book

 

6. Sukashi Tsuba in europäischen Sammlungen ECKHARD KREMERS // 5 yagyu ( hoan ) Tsuba in German and English

 

7. UCHI GATANA NO KO TSUBA ZUSETSU KENICHIRO YOKOTA IN Japanese // 5 yagyu tsuba

 

8. OWARI TO MIKAWA NO TANKO OKAMOTO YASUKAZU more than 40 sides of Norisuke and yagyu  Tsuba

 

Best Peter

[BIG]

I think one EXPERT said, leave the sketchbooks and concentrate on the “real” books and pics and the Tsuba

 

Do you still read the forum, Christian 

[KungFooey]

30 minutes ago, Spartancrest said:

Deep, deep pockets papered Yagyu tsuba  https://www.jauce.com/auction/h1160862639    

and a similar past auction  https://www.jauce.com/auction/w1073080451    

 https://www.jauce.com/auction/m1160847457   Papered Yagyu  but I would have guessed cast!     Seams, crack or folded forge fault?

 

Papered Ohno/Ono  that sold for far less?  https://www.jauce.com/auction/r1148317429    

 

 but when did Ōno suddenly become Ohno I must have missed the memo - I will stick with Sasano's spelling [ŌNO] until he tells me differently 

Now I understand why this one is being fought over! 😅

[Tim Evans]

On the subject of books, a must have for beginning collectors is "Tsuba, An Aesthetic Study", by Kazutaro Torigoye and Robert Haynes, from the "Tsuba Geijutsu-Ko" of Kazutaro Torigoye. The characteristics of Yagyu tsuba is one of the topics.

 

More info and how to order at the the Northern California Japanese Sword Club web site.

 

http://ncjsc.org/ncjsc_publications.htm

 

Also Markus Sesko's website is worth a look. Free blog articles on swords and fittings plus books to order.

 

https://markussesko.com/

 

[Iaido dude]

Deanna, thanks for starting this post. The subjects of Yagyu and Ono/Ohno are always of interest because the characteristics of these categories are often less well established. One of the things to keep in mind about attribution is that after Early Edo when the pure provincial influence that characterizes tsuba we refer to as Kanayama, Owari, etc, gives way to cross pollination, it becomes increasingly the case that there is a merging of influences as tsubako begin to travel and intermingle in capital cities and major trade hubs. The smiths never labeled themselves the way we seem to refer to them because of the almost obsessive need to pin down the attribution. Often they produced tsuba in numerous styles simultaneously based on the market demands including special commissions from patrons. For example, we sometimes find tekkotsu on styles of tsuba that we don't usually associate with this kind of feature. There is no reason to think these smiths limited themselves so strictly with regard to interpretation or execution. Short of authentic mei that identifies the smith, we are using inductive reasoning (in the best case scenario) to identify features of one or more categories. Eckhardt Kremers has postulated convincingly that the Kyo-sukashi, Owari, and Ko-Shoami styles were major influences on the features of Akasaka guards because these were being produced simultaneously by a Shoami master who moved to Akasaka with several Owari tsubako to set up a workshop.

 

Beware guards like the teapot above. The surface treatment looks manipulated with wax to cover up damage to the patination. Such guards may have attribution from shinsa, but the condition is not part of the judgement.

[Steve Waszak]

Excellent thoughts expressed in your post here, Steve.  

[Curran]

These are the 4 NBTHK papered Yagyu that I have owned.

While you might find one or two in the design books, defining a Yagyu tsuba is a more a mixture of the design+materials+execution.

 

Each of these tsuba has a relatively solid meaning behind the design.

Each has the sandy grey grit iron that is associated with Yagyu construction.

Each has the squared off mimi.

     Some have the filo dough layers evident on the mimi, but some do not.

 

Just remember that a lot of Yagyu are not in the design books.

Don't get fixated on something from the design books. More over, a lot of other schools copied the ones in the design books. You will have a lot of tsuba that are or Yagyu design, but tick none of the other boxes of what is considered Yagyu.

 

Repeating myself from above:

Defining "Yagyu" often comes down to the materials+the design+execution (the geometry, etc.)

[Iaido dude]

Beautiful, Curran. Your comments ring true for all categories of tsuba. There is no substitute for hard-earned experience and expertise. 

 

Is the second one a recent acquisition? I was looking at the same tsuba or a very similar one not long ago, but passed because I limited myself to previously published designs and couldn’t assess the materials. 

[Iaido dude]

Steve, nearly everything I know I learned from you! 

[Robert S]

Curran:  Your comment on the "grainy" texture of the steel is interesting, since there is also obvious forging in some cases.  I wonder what causes that?  Is it possible that some of these had at one time low level active rust, which has been stabilized, but which disproportionately effected one of the types of steel grain metallurgy in the relatively course grain?  Hard to see how it would have looked like that right after forging.

[ROKUJURO]

Robert,

I believe these TSUBA are actually in a very good state of preservation and do not look much different compared with the time of their manufacture. Do not forget that all iron TSUBA were patinated for a "used" look. Parallel to this, the patina was a way to protect the surface of a TSUBA.