Help identifying old family blade in Army mounts

[Karatedave]

Hi all, I’m new to the forum. I bought this army ww2 on eBay. Was a gamble, was looking for a blade I could put new mounts on and practice my kata. But when I got it it looks old. One stamp on top of handle. Looks like it was mod for army mounts. Blade shows very odd ha mon you can barely see. You all seem very knowledgeable here. Looking forwards to some good feed back. Thanks 

[RobCarter3]

Hi Dave,

 

It looks like some of your pictures are not coming through. 

 

This sword will undoubtedly spark some discussion. 
 

Some swords with this tang stamp have been posted here before, here is one example, here is another. 
 

The fittings also fall into a known pattern, see also here, and here.
 

There is evidence that various patterns of crude Japanese-style swords were made in China, Java, and other places outside of Japan during the war for Japanese or collaborator forces.  There is also evidence that fake Japanese swords were made during and immediately after the war (and ever since) by enterprising individuals to sell as souvenirs to GIs.  Without provenance or conformity to one of the known "patterns," it's hard to tell the difference between the two.  Search for threads on "island swords."

[Karatedave]

Hi, thank you for the info. I have a lot of reading to catch up on. This is a great place to learn. Thank you. If anyone else has any info. Thought I might have gotten lucky. Ok I’ll keep searching for the real deal. I’ve started obsessing about these old blades. 

[Karatedave]

Question, so with the leather sheath and tassel on the handle. You think it was made for an office in a different army? Or just a good fake? The sheath and tassel look period. Thanks 

[Kiipu]

Dave, in addition to the ones Robert pointed out above, read this one.  It got buried in the middle of a thread.

WW2 Japanese sword Marking

[RobCarter3]

Dave,

 

Don't be disheartened, and don't write this sword off as "fake" just yet.  I was being careful with my words because these kinds of swords are controversial, as you'll see if you look at prior threads.  Some knowledgeable members think they're post-war fakes, some knowledgeable members think they're genuine island/collaborator swords. 

 

We know from primary source documents that swords were made outside of Japan during the war and were made by and for collaborator forces.  Some, like the Java swords, are fairly well documented.  For the rest, the difficulty is connecting the dots between "patterns" that surface, any provenance that might surface with them, and the incredibly scant documentary evidence, all while sorting out the true fakes. 

 

FWIW, I think the evidence from the prior threads points to this pattern being made in China during the war for officers of the Japanese puppet collaborationist Chinese army.  There are some members here who are much more knowledgeable about these types of swords than me.  @Bruce Pennington@BANGBANGSAN@Kiipu

 

Can you post a more close up picture of the tassel?  And pictures of all the other fittings, including the habaki?

[lonely panet]

dont be lead astray but uneducated words,  everything show in these pictures is just modern repro s**t,  full stop the end.  

its not Japanese,  its not evan pre 1980's.

 

you have failed to educate yourself with books before buying.  thats not a gamble its being uneducated 

[Karatedave]

lol…. Some would say it’s the price of an education. I didn’t spend much and my purpose was to use a heave blade for Iaido Kata. The blade is in good shape and has some wight to it and will be great for training. In new mounts. I just didn’t want to make sure I ruined something important. I figured this forum has many well educated individuals, and would like to start to learn about old swords. As I have a few replicas and a few being made from Japan. It just takes forever to get new one as you all know. Who is this man from Colorado Springs as I live there as well and would love to meet someone with the same passion as myself. Thanks for just saying how it is. Respect 

[Bruce Pennington]

Dave,

Robert did an excellent job summarizing our views on these.  Thanks Robert!

 

I have a few of these on file with this stamp/mark.  Oddly, they all have the 'Manchurian' style fittings, whereas this one has 'Collaborator' (my term) with 'Japanese' style tsuba and, if legit (and it might be) a Gunzoku tassel.  

 

Interesting item.

 

Edit: I should add the flower on both the tsuba and kabutogane is plum, not sakura, so still inline with Chinese/Manchurian made.  Also, the machi (notches where the nakago meets the blade) are offset, not aligned, which is a Chinese thing.  The blade is quite nice for one of these.  Quite nice.

[Karatedave]

Thank you for the information everyone. I look forward expanding the rabbit hole of collecting antique Nihonto. And new thanks 

[Polaria]

My notes:

• Tsuba doesn't have the clear definition as in genuine Japanese shin-gunto parts.
• The flowers in all the parts look different than shin gunto cherry blossoms.
• Holes for the locking mechanism in tsuba and seppa are badly defined and made in different way that I've seen in any shin-gunto.
• Pommel doesn't look right in any shape or form.
• Knot loop and tassel are clearly recent production.

[paul griff]

Hello,

         Agree with above..100% fake unfortunately…

Regards,

             Paul.

[ROKUJURO]

Dave,

it can be dangerous to use these kind of blades in KATA. What may look like an acceptable blade may break under stress and injure yourself or someone else - the DOJO of Flying Daggers! You may know what I mean.

The NAKAGO is ugly and will not allow a good fit in any newly made (or old, for that matter) TSUKA. Yours is wrapped in a wrong style. The TSUKA-ITO will come loose in use and unwrap all the way off the TSUKA. Not Japanese style!  

You say it is heavy. How heavy? Weight is not a quality aspect; true SAMURAI era blades are relatively light, weighing at around 800 g (plus/minus). 

This is a late copy of a military sword, made to deceive uninformed buyers. With all its issues, I don't think it is an "Island sword".  

[Karatedave]

Hi ROKUJURO,

  thanks for the response. I agree 100%. The more I read and look at pics the more I see the difference. In a way I’m glad I did buy it, or I would have not wanted  to learn as much about old swords. As for putting new mounts on it, yeah I started to play with the idea and was like well that’s not going to work ether. It will be hung to remind me of my mistake to not do it again. I usually buy new blades and have a few being made in Japanese as we speak. I like my kata blades at about 2.2 to 2.8 lbs cutting blades to be closer to 3. 
 

the fake sword  is close to 3 lbs  Looks like it never had a true polish but by a machine. I agree the handle is trash, but it looks like two different people tied it like it came loose at some point. The fitting seemed rushed. Maybe a late fake, I don’t think it was made in the last 20- 30 years it just has that old grandma smell. 

[BANGBANGSAN]

I would say this is a Chinese puppet army sword (伪军刀).

Please check out the photos. The sword at the very bottom is an exhibit in the Military Museum in Beijing. The tag reads: 冀热察挺进军第三科科长贾顺林缴获的日伪军战刀 "A battle sword seized by Jia Shunlin, head of the Third Section of the Ji-Re-Cha Advance Army, from the Japanese puppet army."

Notice that the metal parts of this puppet army sword are very similar to the one Dave posted.

 

[Karatedave]

Hi, thanks for adding to the topic. I’m slowly diving into this puppet army. Very interesting stuff. Thank you.