Share your concave or convex shape tsuba!

[Dan tsuba]

So, out of my collection of about 150 tsuba only a very (very) few are in a concave or convex shape.

 

I figure for a master tsuba maker to forge that type of shape probably took a lot of extra work!

 

Why was that concave or convex shape done?

 

Was it to distribute the weight of the tsuba differently on the blade? 

 

Less weight towards the blade and more weight away from the blade for a concave shape.

 

More weight towards the blade and less weight away from the blade for a convex shape.

 

Or was it just an artistic choice by the craftsman?

 

Anyway, I have included pictures of one of my concave and convex shape tsuba.

 

When I purchased these tsuba I had no idea of their concave or convex shape, since no pictures showing that shape of the tsuba were shown and the seller did not describe the shape in his listing.

 

Only when I received the tsuba and hefted them and placed my fingers over them, did I become aware of the concave or convex shape of the tsuba.

 

I think it would be interesting if members could post pictures of what they have!

 

Onward!

[Ron M]

Here is my only tsuba fitting what you’re looking for, convex.

 Regards

[Steves87]

There is actually three types Dan, named Wangata (bowl), Goishi-gata (convex both sides), and Hoiteibara (concave both sides).

Here are some collages of 4 guards that i have in my collection. (Also on my PD website posted earlier this month, or late last that mentions these names).

 

[Dan tsuba]

Wow, Stephen!

 

Super cool!  Thanks for the illiustrations, information, and pictures!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Spartancrest]

One I have never seen another like - not oval, but a Lens shaped Wangata with "Gama-hada" toad skin silver surface [not the best of this technique - the silver has "run" and not formed drops]

and a couple of others.

[Dan tsuba]

So, what I find of interest is how those Wangata (bowl shaped) tsuba would have appeared when mounted on a sword.

 

Now I remember reading somewhere (can’t remember where!) that the kozuka hitsu-ana on a tsuba is always placed on a sword so it is that hitsu-ana that is always worn closest to the wearers body.

 

On the Wangata tsuba shown in the previous posts, that would mean that the dish shape (not the bowl shape) of the tsuba would be mounted and placed against the tsuka of the sword.

 

The motifs on those tsuba could then be seen by a viewer looking at the front of the sheathed sword in its saya.

 

When the sword is drawn from the saya the bowl feature of the tsuba could then be seen by the viewer (probably not a good place to be to view the bowl feature of the tsuba!).

 

Now I wonder why a bowl type tsuba was made?

 

Did it have something to do with weight distribution on the blade?

 

Or was it just an artistic choice of the purchaser of the tsuba?

 

Maybe tsuba were made in a bowl shape so the wearers thumb couldn’t slip off of the top of the tsuba when releasing the sword from the saya and drawing the sword?

 

Could it have been less expensive to make because a motif only had to be made on one side of the tsuba (although I would think that for a tusba craftsman to achieve that bowl shape had to be more work than a flat type tsuba)?

 

I have seen only a very (very and again very!) few tsuba made in that Wangata shape.  My thoughts are that it had to be a special order for the tsuba craftsman to make that type of tsuba.

 

Or will this remain just another unanswerable mystery of tsuba?

 

Onward!

 

[Spartancrest]

So far this is the only mounted images I have of a Wangata tsuba [from an old thread https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/36785-quick-appraisal-needed-on-a-deal-going-down-opinions-please/] there is also another old thread from 2020 where the question  "Anyone see a wan-gata mounted? " was asked.  I have heard speculation that the Wangata style tsuba acted to keep dust and water out of the saya and hence protected the blade better - but if so it wasn't adopted by very many people as the small numbers that were actually made would suggest. Also some link to cup hilted European swords being seen in Japan, but as we know cup hilted rapiers etc have the guard curving back to the handle and not toward the blade.

 

[Spartancrest]

Forget that "little" Wangata,  check out https://www.facebook...100080255928820&_rdr

 

Might I suggest this one could keep the rain out of the saya - - and keep the wearer pretty dry if he used it as an umbrella! 

 

 

 

It is suggested later in that Facebook link that "It often happens a child's jingasa is mistaken for a tsuba".   It does look like someone got "creative"  

[Tim Evans]

On 11/17/2024 at 6:48 AM, Dan tsuba said:

Now I wonder why a bowl type tsuba was made?

 

The cup shaped tsuba were influenced by the swords worn by Europeans. Anything European was exotic and fashionable in the 16th century and later. The main seaport the European ships used was Nagasaki in Kyushu so a lot of the cup shaped tsuba come from Kyushu tsuba groups like Hizen and Higo. European influence in tsuba design has been discussed several times. 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/44557-funny-shape-tsuba/#comment-462729

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/18403-namban-hands-up-if-you-like-namban-tsuba/

 

for examples. The shape of the tsuba is mostly about the visual effect the smith desires, the shape would not noticeably affect the balance of the sword. 

[Dan tsuba]

Thanks Tim!

 

I understand what you stated in your post.

 

“The cup shaped tsuba were influenced by the swords worn by Europeans. Anything European was exotic and fashionable in the 16th century and later.”

 

But how the Japanese used the cup shaped tsuba on their swords is completely different than how the Europeans used that shape on their swords.

 

When mounted, as described in my post of Nov 17, 6:48AM (and as shown in some pictures on the above posts) the bowl shape of the tsuba on a Japanese sword would face towards the sheath (saya).

 

On a European sword the bowl shape would be facing away from the sheath.

 

My drawing of how a Japanese sword would be with a Wangata tsuba (top of drawing) and how a European sword would be (bottom of drawing) is attached.

 

So were the Japanese trying to emulate the European hand guards, or was it something else?

 

If my memory serves me correctly (which is always an iffy thing!) not a lot of those Wangata type tsuba were made.

 

[Tim Evans]

Actually the Europeans and the Japanese mounted them both ways. For the Japanese, mounting it convex side toward the tsuka would make any carving or decoration more visible, also less likely for the tsuba to interfere with the fingers. Attached is an example of one mounted concave side toward the tsuka, also a rapier mounted convex side toward the hilt. 

[b.hennick]

I have seen a tsuba made from a gold pocket watch cover. The choices side faces the tsuka. 

[Spartancrest]

20 minutes ago, b.hennick said:

I have seen a tsuba made from a gold pocket watch cover.

[b.hennick]

Tada... Thanks Dale. I never took a photo of it. It is not something that I would want in my collection. 

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Hi Barry , this shows how all of our tastes differ ,as I would love to own it

[Spartancrest]

16 minutes ago, Ian B3HR2UH said:

I would love to own it

https://www.lotsearc...-38922103?perPage=80

https://www.lot-art....case-30.10.17-bonham

 

Gold-plated copper, sold for $1,875  in 2017.  Small size  2 1/8in (5.3cm).  It has some historic provenance but it is just plated in gold and originally French!

[I like the "odd" but the price even in 2017 is out of my range - goodness knows what it would sell for now.]

[Dan tsuba]

So, here is something interesting.

I found another tsuba in my collection that is convex in shape (Goishi-gata -convex both sides).

I was taking some of my tsuba down from my walls to take pictures for another of my threads here, the Kamon (motifs and shapes) of tsuba thread.

It was then that I noticed that the tsuba was convex, since I probably have not held that tsuba in my hands since I purchased it a couple of years ago!

I still feel that to make a tsuba in that shape took some extra effort from the craftsman!

Pictures attached.