Bizen koku...?

[Lukrez]

Hello everyone

allow the blade characteristics (mokume-hada, itame hada, hiraji surfeace, notare mixing in gunome and clove choji, frequent feet ashi) an attribution to a specific smith?

[Lewis B]

I'll save Jean the post

 

 

- well focused, not foggy or blurry
- made with a dark, non reflective background for good contrast
- made with light from the side (may not apply for HAMON photos)
- made directly from above (not at an angle)
- made with correct orientation (vertically tip-upwards, especially NAKAGO photos and TSUBA) 
- without HABAKI but showing the MACHI and NAKAGO JIRI 
- made in high resolution to see details
- showing details (in magnification) like BOSHI, HAMACHI, HAMON, HADA, NAKAGO JIRI etc. or the fine work on TSUBA
- presented as cut-outs so very little background is shown
 

If you cannot supply good photos (..."these photos are all I have from the dealer...."/..."I do not have a good camera but only an old mobile phone...." ), DO NOT POST BAD ONES. They will not be helpful.

[Michaelr]

Beautiful. 

[Lukrez]

 

[Lukrez]

1 hour ago, Lewis B said:

I'll save Jean the post

 

 

- well focused, not foggy or blurry
- made with a dark, non reflective background for good contrast
- made with light from the side (may not apply for HAMON photos)
- made directly from above (not at an angle)
- made with correct orientation (vertically tip-upwards, especially NAKAGO photos and TSUBA) 
- without HABAKI but showing the MACHI and NAKAGO JIRI 
- made in high resolution to see details
- showing details (in magnification) like BOSHI, HAMACHI, HAMON, HADA, NAKAGO JIRI etc. or the fine work on TSUBA
- presented as cut-outs so very little background is shown
 

If you cannot supply good photos (..."these photos are all I have from the dealer...."/..."I do not have a good camera but only an old mobile phone...." ), DO NOT POST BAD ONES. They will not be helpful.

 

oh, sorry and thanks for the tip. I thought the photos weren't that bad, what exactly makes the quality of these photos so bad?

[Tohagi]

With these samples we can't appreciate sugata for example. Funbari and sori are important in Bizen osafune...

 

Best,

Éric 

[Lukrez]

[Lewis B]

1 hour ago, Lukrez said:

 

Well there is Mei. Hopefully not gimei, so that should tell you who made it.

[Shugyosha]

Definitely Sukesada.

[Alex A]

What John said, i was just wondering what the odds are.

[Lukrez]

42 minutes ago, Lewis B said:

Well there is Mei. Hopefully not gimei, so that should tell you who made it.

Bizen koku, rest ist suriage

[Lukrez]

19 minutes ago, Shugyosha said:

Definitely Sukesada.

What ist typicsl sukesade? Especially because there are a Lot of Smiths unser the sukesada Name? Why Not kiyomitsu?

[Alex A]

Why not Norimitsu?

 

 

[Lukrez]

Any oshigata or Blade examples to Check the similarities?

 

 

https://world.seiyud...m/product/ka-110423/

 

 

[Alex A]

Your perfectly demonstrating the issue with a blade with no name.

 

You can obviously match a blade to a smith by studying comparisons but there is still a but.

 

One of the issues is that if you look hard enough you will find very similar blades by an whole bunch of different smiths

 

Especially Sue-Bizen and names mentioned above.

[Rivkin]

Hard to say, they can have a distinctive boshi but I can't see which one it is here...

In any case the work is "sort of" Bizen, but not really. Its a bit rough and choji are a bit not too clearly defined (are they really choji?), while on late Bizen work we tend to have them grouped, crab clawed etc., which is not clear here. Jigane is typical Muromachi, of lower quality - rough, probably blakish. can be Kaga or Fyuyhiro....

The signature is ... uncommon for Bizen. The strokes are wide, with a clearly uneven depth... Its not typical. Their signatures generally all strokes are about the same, same depth, relatively narrow width., very fine, comfortable yet simple writing.

Also this signature is a bit condensed, which is even with very long Bizen writing you don't get a feeling kanji are unevenly crowd into each other. 

I don't like it. Which taking in mind how little of it remains is not nesserily means anything. Late Bizen can go in different directions...

[Jacques D.]

Better time looking for a needle in a haystack!

[Lukrez]

Thanks to everyone, stimulating observations and aspects.

 I don't completely agree with the mei interpretatuon, but I will definitely continue to research this interesting point, so thank you. 

According to hozon it is attributed to the kiyomitsu.

Makes me curious about how shinsa works in this extremely fine area and the reliability with which attributions are made. Are there any reports on this without stepping on anyone's toes?

[Lukrez]

4 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

Better time looking for a needle in a haystack!

[Rivkin]

6 hours ago, Lukrez said:

Thanks to everyone, stimulating observations and aspects.

 I don't completely agree with the mei interpretatuon, but I will definitely continue to research this interesting point, so thank you. 

According to hozon it is attributed to the kiyomitsu.

Makes me curious about how shinsa works in this extremely fine area and the reliability with which attributions are made. Are there any reports on this without stepping on anyone's toes?

Well, Kiyomitsu is a very precise and relatively "good" attribution for a Muromachi blade, so I would take it over any guesses which are made based on not the most informative photographs and barely surviving signature.

Maybe its an impressive work in hand. Would I personally consider it Kiyomitsu? From what is seen - more likely no than yes. Maybe I simply don't know his/their work that well and its a book worthy typical example of one of the styles - and I obviously experienced such shaming many times in the past.

[Alex A]

Kirill, are you referring to comments made above as "shaming" 

 

If so, would disagree and if anything i have said is insulting to the OP, then it wasn't meant that way.

 

I would call it a REALITY check.

 

We were asked our thoughts on the little that was given and replies given accordingly.

 

From what can be seen above, it really is like looking for a needle in a haystack, as Jacques mentioned.

 

Saying that though, glad it has papers so at least the owner does have an answer, even if opinion and not definitive.

 

Cheers.

 

 

 

 

[Shugyosha]

Sorry Lukrez, it was a joke comment - there are very many Bizen Sukesada so I thought the odds were in favour of the sword being by one of them. 

[Lukrez]

Great, thank you everyone for your effort and the useful information, especially since there are no rcordings of a shinsa process. 
Is it because Japan is very privacy-focused? Setsumei is only available for NBTHK juyo and tokubetsu juyo. 
Are there perhaps relevant links or reading material where I can find out more information?

[Lukrez]

3 minutes ago, Shugyosha said:

Sorry Lukrez, it was a joke comment - there are very many Bizen Sukesada so I thought the odds were in favour of the sword being by one of them. 

[Lukrez]

[Jacques D.]

19 Muromachi Bizen Kiyomitsu.. 

[Rivkin]

5 hours ago, Alex A said:

Kirill, are you referring to comments made above as "shaming" 

I would call it a REALITY check.

 

No, its just common you take a sword and think why on earth does it have such papers, and then you find a blade just like that which is signed and signed well.

Used to occur all the time, recently does not happen (much) anymore. 

[Rivkin]

4 hours ago, Lukrez said:

Great, thank you everyone for your effort and the useful information, especially since there are no rcordings of a shinsa process. 
Is it because Japan is very privacy-focused? Setsumei is only available for NBTHK juyo and tokubetsu juyo. 
Are there perhaps relevant links or reading material where I can find out more information?

The way one usually learns is you take NBTHK journal, look for kantei entries for Kiyomitsu and look at the explanations.

I can see now that one of Kiyomitsu's signatures can be a decent match for these kanji, which maybe the reason for the attribution - the writing style is not too common in Bizen.

This being said, Kiyomitsu's distinctive style is wide suguha with ko ashi, possibly ko choji. Most importantly he is a very high level master or Muromachi Bizen jigane, based on fine, bright itame.

The jigane in your blade I think is poor by comparison. He did some custom work which can be in Ichimonji style, can be similar to Oei Bizen, in which case his jigane is still fine but can be more subdued.

 

[Lukrez]

9 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

The way one usually learns is you take NBTHK journal, look for kantei entries for Kiyomitsu and look at the explanations.

I can see now that one of Kiyomitsu's signatures can be a decent match for these kanji, which maybe the reason for the attribution - the writing style is not too common in Bizen.

This being said, Kiyomitsu's distinctive style is wide suguha with ko ashi, possibly ko choji. Most importantly he is a very high level master or Muromachi Bizen jigane, based on fine, bright itame.

The jigane in your blade I think is poor by comparison. He did some custom work which can be in Ichimonji style, can be similar to Oei Bizen, in which case his jigane is still fine but can be more subdued.

 

 

[Lukrez]

5 minutes ago, Lukrez said:

Big Thanks Kirill. I tried to take a better photo, but I still can't quite manage it. 
How can you recognize a poor jigane? I will research more Kiyomitsu blades to ensure a representative comparison.

 

17 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

The way one usually learns is you take NBTHK journal, look for kantei entries for Kiyomitsu and look at the explanations.

I can see now that one of Kiyomitsu's signatures can be a decent match for these kanji, which maybe the reason for the attribution - the writing style is not too common in Bizen.

This being said, Kiyomitsu's distinctive style is wide suguha with ko ashi, possibly ko choji. Most importantly he is a very high level master or Muromachi Bizen jigane, based on fine, bright itame.

The jigane in your blade I think is poor by comparison. He did some custom work which can be in Ichimonji style, can be similar to Oei Bizen, in which case his jigane is still fine but can be more subdued.