NCO shin gunto question - tsuka wood

[grapppa]

I recently purchased a decent NCO sword (http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=6583) and would like to know a few things about the wood insert in the aluminum tsuka. I was able to disassemble the sword and to remove the wood (magnolia?) insert in the tsuka aluminum casting. The wood is cracked in a number of places and I would like to reglue it to restore its strength. Before embarking on this quest, I would like to know if this was originally 2 pieces glued together or if it was carved from a single piece of wood. Your expertise is appreciated. I will post a pic shortly of the wooden insert.

[Bruno]

Do you have some photos?

[Mark]

i has a loose handle for an NCO sword a while back. As i recall the wood insert was in 2 parts.

[Bruno]

As i recall the wood insert was in 2 parts.

i has a loose handle for an NCO sword a while back. As i recall the wood insert was in 2 parts.

 

So do I.

 

I am wondering if these wooden handles are all similar. I have seen 2 different ones, a 2 parts wood insert and a one wood piece a bit like an handle.

[grapppa]

Pictures of the wood and the cracks. My best guess is that this was one piece of wood; carved out. Reason I say this is because the wood is not cracked lengthwise all the way through - at the last 1" or so toward the end of where the nakago is the wood seems to be one integrated piece. See area pointed to by pencil in the first picture; in the 4th picture is the opposite end which has a crack along its full length.

[Grey Doffin]

This started as one piece of wood that was cut down the middle. The recesses for the nakago were cut and the 2 pieces were glued back together. To carve the nakago recess in a single block of wood would be nearly impossible.

Grey

[AMERICAN-FALCONER]

I have a Japanese NCO Shin Gunto type 35 with a copper hilt. The hilt is loose. Is it possible to make new wood replacement to whatever it is I will find when I disassemble the hilt? is there anyone you might know that can make the wood piece or pieces replacement? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Bruce Pennington]

A-F, it would be nice to have a first name to call you by. Do you mean you have a 1935 Type 95 NCO gunto with copper handle? It would help to see photos of the problem area, but chances are you simply need 1 or 2 spacers (called seppa) either side of the tsuba (hand guard). I'll post pics of what I mean. If that's this issue, you can find them at almost any online store that sells Japanese swords, plus there are guys on this site that sell parts like that.

[Jean]

Took care of the signature.

[Shamsy]

I have a Japanese NCO Shin Gunto type 35 with a copper hilt. The hilt is loose. Is it possible to make new wood replacement to whatever it is I will find when I disassemble the hilt? is there anyone you might know that can make the wood piece or pieces replacement? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Be careful not to devalue the sword by replacing the original insert. Keep that on hand so the next owner can decide if the would like to restore it. These liners do shrink over time. Adding another seppa (brass washer or preferably leather) may do the same job without removing any of the original parts. I don't see that it'd matter if the handle were loose though.

[Bruce Pennington]

Be careful not to devalue the sword by replacing the original insert. Keep that on hand so the next owner can decide if the would like to restore it. These liners do shrink over time. Adding another seppa (brass washer or preferably leather) may do the same job without removing any of the original parts. I don't see that it'd matter if the handle were loose though.

Steve, this question from Randy, American-Falconer, is a new one tacked onto a 6 year-old thread. I wonder if a moderator could split this into a new thread to avoid confusion?

[Brian]

Considering the original topic explains the whole topic of wooden cores, I think it's ok to leave it here as a continuation of the same theme.

[Bruce Pennington]

Ah-so! I see the confusion is all mine! I see now that Randy was talking about the wooden lining inside the tsuka, not seppa problems.

 

In light of many previous discussions of how NCO blades never seem to fit tightly again after being taken apart, it just occured to me that the wood, inside the tsukas, must dry out over the decades and shrink. I agree with Steve - please keep the original liner. I wonder if there might be a simple work-around fix, like wrapping the nakago with a layer or two of plastic-wrap to snug the fit up? I don't know if plastic wrap will discolor the nakago over time? Another idea would be to thicken the wood somehow - maybe fitting thinly sliced slivers of ice-cream stick inside, or even wraping the wood halves with a very thin cloth?

[AMERICAN-FALCONER]

I'm listening to all ideas. By the way I think I had a bout of dyslexia when I said this was a type 35. I guess I meant model 1935 and type 95. I had a good conversation with Robert Benson from Honolulu, Hawaii who does restoration on Japanese swords. He had told me that once apart He has used thin wood slats/shims made from cigar box wood. I figure it will also need a new leather washer. I plan to make one using the old one as a template and utilize some thick steer hide like used to make bridals for horses. That should last another 80 years. Robert referred me to the book Swords of Imperial Japan 1868-1945 Cyclopedia Edition by Jim Dawson, page 191 where it is supposed to display this exact sword disassembled. Anyway this thread has some excellent pictures of the wood insert and that's a pretty damn good start. I'm just a little wary of taking off the sarute and don't want to bend it too much that it breaks either coming off or pressing it back on.  As far as that double slotted screw/bolt at the hilt, I plan using two flat tip screw drivers with the exact thickness and length of the slots. You guys have any other recommendations (except leave well enough alone)? As far as pictures of my Copper Handle NCO Shin Gunto, I'm sending a link of where my sword originally came from before I acquired it from it's latest owner who is an NMB member, Tom Clancy of Ireland. http://www.antique-swords.eu/copper-hilted-Japanese-ncos-shin-gunto-katana.html

[Bruce Pennington]

You lucky dog! You got one with the leather tassel! Very nice Randy!

 

I've taken the sarute off each of my gunto. They are hard to bend, so I wouldn't expect it to break. I wrap two plyers with a heavy cloth to pry it open. The cloth prevents the layers from cutting into the sarute and/or scratching the tsuka if it slips (unfortunately learned the hard way on both accounts!). When re-assembling, insert one end of the sarute, cover the other side with the cloth, and press firmly to mash the open end back into the hole.

 

Works for me.

[AMERICAN-FALCONER]

Bruce, Thanks for the information on the removal of a sarute. I'm glad I didn't have to learn it the hard way. What's your opinion of using wood from a cigar box to make shims or slats? Also what's your opinion of replacing the leather spacer that has shrunken and hardened with some new thick steerhide? I like your idea of using slivers of popsicle sticks to place inside the wood that's inside the handle already and or also using thin cloth to wrap around the wood. Maybe some pieces cut from an old silk scarf would work. As far as the popsicle sticks, should I use popsicle sticks from Japanese popsicles? LOL I'll be starting this project this coming Saturday. I'll keep you posted. Thanks for all your ideas and info. Much appreciated!

[Dave R]

Many years ago i dismounted a tanto to find the nakago was shimmed  out with what looked like a wood shaving with Japanese writing on it. Nowadays I suspect it was in fact a dried bamboo leaf, which elsewhere on this forum was suggested as the traditional material for this role....

 Readily available from your local Chinese provisions store.

[Bruce Pennington]

Randy, It all depends on what you plan to do with the gunto. For resale value, everything you add or re-do will detract from it's collector value. If you plan to keep it forever and just want to restore it a bit, I'd follow Dave's thought of using bamboo slivers (although any of the ideas you mentioned would tighten the tang without changing the original conditon). Same thoughts on the leather seppa. If you are keeping it and just want to tighten it up, cutting a new piece of leather is fine, but I'd keep the original whether selling or keeping. Mostly - enjoy your hobby the way that makes it fun for you!