Another Sukesada Gimei (?) - Authentication Needed

[Marcus Devonport]

First Timer Poster, hoping I may be able to call upon more experienced collectors than myself 

 

I'm in my first months of Collecting Nihonto and won this item through online auction, advertised as a "Genzaemon Sukesada" katana- extract below.

 

"A Muromachi period Genzaemon Suke Sada katana with 61cm double grooved blade, in near mint Japanese polish, signed to the tang and dated El-Roku, Hachi, Nen, Ni Gatso (made in the 8th year of 1565, February a lucky day"

 

The attached some photos of the Nakago weren't available to me at the time- however I was taken aback by what looked to be an active Hamon, from what limited photos were available and admittedly caught auction-fever on the day of the sale 

 

Can I get some general opinions; the Nakago does appear strange in shape having being altered during its life- however I'm mostly concerned over the Mei itself. 

 

I'll admit I'm not at a point where I can confidently compare signatures- I would be grateful if I could get some opinions on this piece.

Thanks all, I really hope you can help!

 

[Alex A]

Not great pics, but dont like the look of that mei or the state of the nakago.

 

Saying that though, the blade could be Sue Bizen

[Marcus Devonport]

3 minutes ago, Alex A said:

Not great pics, but dont like the look of that mei or the state of the nakago.

Sadly, the I had potentially put too much faith in the auctions description as I've built up a level of trust with that particular one- the terrible photos are the best I have to work with for the time being.

Would you refuse it, it should it be a forged signature? would it count as such in an auction, and be a *forgery* with lack of a better term?

I don't know whether I need to accept I may have been burned on this one, as it caused quite a stir at auction and didn't go for cheap.

 

It would be a great shame, as initially all looked correct in the lot photos (or at least the initial ones did!)

[Alex A]

Hi Marcus, auctions talk nonsense at the best of times.

 

The blade actually looks ok, so as long as you paid the right price for a gimei blade with a dodgy nakago then all is well.

 

As someone new to the hobby i would do a lot of reading up and stay away from auctions. You can buy swords with NBTHK papers etc that authenticate the blade.

[Marcus Devonport]

7 minutes ago, Alex A said:

Hi Marcus, auctions talk nonsense at the best of times.

 

The blade actually looks ok, so as long as you paid the right price for a gimei blade with a dodgy nakago then all is well.

 

As someone new to the hobby i would do a lot of reading up and stay away from auctions. You can buy swords with NBTHK papers etc that authenticate the blade.

Im all honesty the listing turned into an absolute free for all, hammer price was £2300- so its problematic. I may have to discuss with them, if responses collectively say its a Gimei. 

 

I actually purchased a papered blade for 1000 less, in that same morning. Thoughts? 

[Alex A]

The only folks people take seriously when it comes to authenticating blades are those like the NBTHK and NTHK.

 

Opinions, but expert opinions.

 

Auctions and even some dealers here talk utter nonsense to sell stuff.

 

You can try talking to them but they might just say something like "our expert verified it and it was open for people to come and inspect before the sale"

[Marcus Devonport]

2 minutes ago, Alex A said:

The only folks people take seriously when it comes to authenticating blades are those like the NBTHK and NTHK.

 

Opinions, but expert opinions.

 

Auctions and even some dealers here talk utter nonsense to sell stuff.

 

You can try talking to them but they might just say something like "our expert verified it and it was open for people to come an inspect before the sale"

Always worth a try, I suppose- although I would be amused if they played off the fact an "in-house expert" authenticated it. Hopefully they will see that it's been mislisted as a genuine example. I'll try call on a few favours to have a antique dealer confirm to them an opinion in writing. 

[Alex A]

Don't forget, that's just my opinion above. 

 

We see Sukesada mei from various Sue Bizen Sukesada that look shoddy but have papers. That one looks a step too far.

 

Nothings real clear from those images.

 

I cant say any more than with what's available i would have passed.

 

Others may have differing opinions.

 

[Brian]

Shouldn't be buying unpapered mainly for the mei anyways. So many gimei, I don't think the mei would be enough to refuse the win. The sword is real, and in decent polish. Nakago has been altered in not a good way.
But the sword is real. Price was...high. But unless they guarantee the mei, I think it was fairly represented. Not a terrible sword. If the nagasa is really 61cm accurately measured, then it's a katana and not a crazy price. If it's a wakizashi then it's a different story.

[Nobody]

2 hours ago, Marcus Devonport said:

First Timer Poster, hoping I may be able to call upon more experienced collectors than myself 

 

I'm in my first months of Collecting Nihonto and won this item through online auction, advertised as a "Genzaemon Sukesada" katana- extract below.

 

"A Muromachi period Genzaemon Suke Sada katana with 61cm double grooved blade, in near mint Japanese polish, signed to the tang and dated El-Roku, Hachi, Nen, Ni Gatso (made in the 8th year of 1565, February a lucky day"

 

......................................................

 

 

 

The reading of the mei is wrong.

After 備前國住長舩 (Bizen no kuni ju Osafune), the chiseled name is 源兵衛祐定 - Genbe'e Sukesada.

 

And if the mei is genuin, chiseled name should be 源兵衛尉祐定 - Genbe'e no jo Sukesada.

 

 

[Geraint]

Dear Marcus.

 

Welcome to NMB and to the wonderful world of Japanese swords.  Forgive me if anything I say is already well known to you but here goes with a few thoughts.  

 

Alex is quite right about auction houses in general, read the conditions of sale and they are very cleverly hedged about with caveats, reasonable from one point of view in that they are generalists and rarely have the detailed expertise that is available to you on this board for example.  From the buyers point of view it is really caveat emptor and there is no substitute for seeing the lot in hand.  Once you bid then you're in!  Personally I would resist the urge to try to negotiate this one back, you may strike lucky but you may not and,'my mate on the internet tells me it's fake' will not cut much ice.  Whatever you decide let us know how it goes.

 

From the photographs this one came from Japan and it has become a commonplace that if a sword of any quality comes out of Japan it will have authentication papers from one of the organisations that everybody trusts or it is assumed that it failed to get that authentication.  The auction house correctly identified the paperwork as registration documents, nothing more, these are not authentication papers, some of which can be found here, https://shibuiswords.com/papers1.htm

Many will advise you to buy only papered swords both for the security of your investment, (if any such can be claimed),  and so that you will learn from known examples.  In short collecting can be rather like paying your dues to earn the knowledge

 

What you do have is a genuine Japanese sword in koshirae, to start with I am sure you will want to compare the mei with other examples, of which one here, https://www.e-nihont...products/detail/1471  See if you can get a sense of the 'handwriting' of the smiths.  What gave it away to Alex so quickly?  Following that you will probably dive into the Sukesada lineage and Bizen swords in general and that is before you start to understand what you can see in the sword itself.   If you do not yet have some of the basic books then buy a couple and start to understand what the terms mean, it's fascinating.

 

Lastly there is the Token  Society, https://to-ken.uk/

 

Hope some of that helps a bit.

 

All the best.

[Brian]

If I get Moriyama san's inference, the mei has to be gimei since it is not signed as per that smith's conventional signature.

[Alex A]

Maybe that's a way out of the sale as it was described incorrectly.

 

Well spotted Moriyama san!

 

 

[Marcus Devonport]

First of all, thank you all for taking the time out of your day, to help educate me on such a difficult topic. 

I will be more wary where picking up such swords in the future-I'll try voice my concerns, raising the very good points made above. Worst case, I have a rather good looking Gimei and a hard lesson of doing prior research. 

I will let you know how I get along...

[Marcus Devonport]

8 hours ago, Nobody said:

 

The reading of the mei is wrong.

After 備前國住長舩 (Bizen no kuni ju Osafune), the chiseled name is 源兵衛祐定 - Genbe'e Sukesada.

 

And if the mei is genuin, chiseled name should be 源兵衛尉祐定 - Genbe'e no jo Sukesada.

 

 

Thank you, thats a very good point that I will take away from this. Appreciate your help

[Marcus Devonport]

Hey, guys- I wanted to give a much delayed update, to close off this thread.

After seeing the collective response from the community on N.M.B and having this verified by the Auctionhouse, they were happy taking back the item and to give me a full refund on this occassion.

I was incredibly fortunate, for under the circumstances. 

Although, the experience gave me a much needed lesson on bidding on signed Nihonto, prior to doing the proper research. 

 

[Alex A]

That's good news Marcus.

 

Hopefully a learning curve for folks to do their homework before a purchase. I guess most of us have done it at one point.