Giving a nihonto some use ?

[Jacques D.]

Sensei of this school practice Battodo with shinto swords (click on battodo) 

 

http://eej.free.fr/

 

 

 

[Ghoul]

31 minutes ago, Franco D said:

Desire is the cause of suffering.

Hit the nail on the head here @Franco D!

 

These swords are here because people didn't fall to their desires.

 

The swords weren't buried with their past owners, they weren't mistreated by their descendants.

 

They were stored, respected, and only when needed, maintained. It is frankly a small miracle we are even able to acquire them - and I suspect there will come a time where they are once again more widely revered and valued.

 

Even if it is a bit more boring for us... I don't need to practice with my nihonto, so I wont. After all, I want at least one of my swords to survive another 500 years, and travel the stars as humanity start to settle them

[Yumso]

Two perspectives, I think.

 

Some would think they are just the caretakers of this era, therefore their job is to preserve the blade in the best condition for later peoples.

Others would think nihonto is an art but also a weapon, limiting its usage only as an art would be bit of waste.

 

I personally have always thought nihonto as an art AND a weapon, well due to my historical reasons, so I do understand your point.

If nihonto is only seen as an art shouldn't fancy shinto or shinshinto have much more value then how they are seen as then now?

 

A weapon, that was made to harm people.

An icon, that was made to show gratitude and promise for another.

An art, that was made to study and appreciate its form.

And a pride, that was made to show one swordsmith's lifetime earned skill.

 

These are all shades of nihonto. 

If one is going to use it properly(not as a some kind of a joke) I'd say sure why not? The choice is yours.

Just remember koto is likely to be weaker than nowaday's steel blades.

[OceanoNox]

This will go against the grain, but here is what I have seen in Japan: Some will use old blades (Nosyudo, the iaito maker, used to sell some, likely for that purpose, but they were not museum or collection level blades), but old iron tsuba are more common. Nowadays, uchiko is only recommended for heavy oxidation, which can occur during a humid summer; otherwise, alcohol with a fine weave cloth and oil is what many do.

For what it's worth, after almost ten years praticing with a shinken, the damage is: scratches on the kissaki, a millimeter broken off the kissaki from hitting the floor (doing the kata tora no issoku), and oxidation on the mune, especially near the habaki (from touching and exhaling during cutting).

The main points against using an antique blade are:

1. The shape may not be quite conducive to iaido practice, i.e. the sori and kissaki shape may not be quite adapted to nukitsuke;

2. The blade's history being unknown (smith sometimes also unknown), it is unclear if the blade is safe to practice with. There may be defects and some prior deformation that make it somewhat "fragile".

(3. The blade is too short for your height, and thus does not allow for "proper" technique to be practiced.)

[Nicolas Maestre]

11 hours ago, Emil said:

Maybe adopting a similar mindset and start viewing it as your lucky charm will make it feel more like it has a purpose?

 

 

See, that is very insightful, and the kind of views I had hoped this kind of debate would foster. Never thought about it this way. Thank you.

[Nicolas Maestre]

8 hours ago, Yumso said:

Two perspectives, I think.

 

6 hours ago, OceanoNox said:

This will go against the grain...

 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts guys. Valid points there.

To make it clear, performing battodo with my nihonto did not even cross my mind! If we are talking about risk, this would be on a whole another level compared to iaï. I have practiced batto, and yes the word damaging is well suited there 😁. So nope, never will.

[Emil]

14 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

I love to see guys with restored vintage cars out on the weekend for a drive.  They don't drive them everyday, and when they do get them out, it is done carefully, no hot-rodding.  It keeps the car alive.  They shouldn't be stored in a huge garage, never to roll again.

 

I actually agree with this, to a point. If anyone were qualified to use a Nihonto, it would be someone with over 10 years of iai experience, skilled enough to draw smoothly, and avoid damaging the blade.

 

That said, I still think using a nihonto as a regular training tool would be risky, occasional use for a significant demonstration might seem more acceptable, but there are two major drawbacks:

 

1. As an experienced iaidoka, you’re setting a standard for less experienced practitioners. Using a nihonto could inspire others to follow your example. 

 

2. The sword you train with should be the one you know best. Only using it on rare occasions goes against that, adjusting to its unique shape would probably lead to unnecessary wear.

 

In my opinion, the best approach would be to have a custom shinsakuto made for you.

 

And as a bonus, when your custom Nihonto is passed down generations, your contribution to keeping the art of nihonto craftsmanship alive would live on with the history of the sword. That is something to be truly proud of.

[Rivkin]

Oh come on, blah-blah-blah, "but can I use a historic sword...".

Just behead whoever you wanted to and be done with it.

 

[Emil]

31 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

Oh come on, blah-blah-blah, "but can I use a historic sword...".

Just behead whoever you wanted to and be done with it.

 

 

Beheadings, on the other hand, I fully support. It will only increase the value of the sword 😂

[Jacques D.]

Many nihonto are not works of art, a kazu uchi mono (a large proportion of Hozon are) can be used without any problem. 

[Ghoul]

1 hour ago, Jacques D. said:

Many nihonto are not works of art

Now that's a hot take 😂 (Doesn't Hozon literally mean a sword is worthy of preservation?)

[Benjamin]

Hi,

 

As stated before, practicing with an antique sword is not a taboo, please watch this video for example (interesting introduction to Nihonto by the way).

 

And Iaido is not Battodo, that is not "shopping wood", we talk about martial art (koryu or not)  that need as much respect as nihonto.

 

But as stated as well, we are not the one that could answer you. Here you will find collectors that desire among all preservation. And please don't compare a 15 years use with a 5 to 10 century preservation.

 

If you practice for so many time, you must have a Sensei or a Soke to guide you through your desire to practice with a shinken. That's up to him that you should seek your answer. Not in a forum, as qualitative as it is (and it is!)

 

And if you are directed toward this direction, choose a sword good to do that, some Japanese sellers indicate swords good for Iai (even antique).

[Emil]

1 hour ago, Benjamin said:

As stated before, practicing with an antique sword is not a taboo, please watch this video for example

 

Unless you're living in Japan you shouldn't follow the Japanese example.

 

It's totally different circumstances due to their laws. If you want to cut tatami or practice Iai with a Shinken inside Japan, you're bound to use Nihonto. For many, an old sword will be more affordable than a newly made sword.

 

I've personally talked to Japanese Togishi who were totally unaware that we can buy shinken from China for as low as 100-200 USD. Whenever you read anything from the Japanese you have to keep in mind that it's likely said from the viewpoint of having little to no alternative, and most of them are unaware that we have better alternatives.

 

If they had a choice they would likely do things differently. 

 

 

[Benjamin]

2 hours ago, Emil said:

 

Unless you're living in Japan you shouldn't follow the Japanese example.

 

 

I agree with your point of view but more specificaly some koryu have branches all over the world, with local Sempai legitimitaly représentives of the japaneses Soke.

These ones or high grade Japanese representatives frequently travel to visit occidentals branches. Of course they knows about chinese copy. They frequentely allow experimented trainees to practice with old nihonto.

Sometimes swords deals are conducted inside the dojo, even for non Japanese.

[Jacques D.]

5 hours ago, Ghoul said:

Now that's a hot take 😂 (Doesn't Hozon literally mean a sword is worthy of preservation?)

The hozon means that the mei is genuine and that it is a traditionally made sword. Nothing else.

[Schneeds]

Bit more to it than that. 

 

HOZON TOKEN

 

1) Edo and earlier blades with correct mei, or mumei blades on which the time period, kuni and group can be identified, may receive Hozon paper.

 

2) Blades that meet the criteria given above can receive Hozon paper even if they are slightly tired or have kizu, as long as those may be permissible in their appreciation.

 

3) For Nambokucho and earlier zaimei blades by famous smiths, re-temper can be permissible if the blade is valuable as a reference, and if the jiBa and nakago are sufficiently well preserved. However, this has to be documented in the paper.

 

4) Repair on jiBa is permissible, unless it significantly impairs the beauty of the blade.

 

5) Blades made in Meiji and Taisho periods, and those by recently deceased smiths, can receive Hozon paper only when the blade is well made, zaimei and has a ubu-nakago.

 

6) Blades are put to “reservation” if a decision could not easily be made on the authenticity of the mei. This also applies to mumei blades in which an attribution is difficult to make.

 

7) Blades with hagire may not receive Hozon paper.

[Jacques D.]

That never meant they are art swords (with some exceptions as always) The problem is knowing the difference between an art sword and a simple practical one

[Mark S.]

So then the paper that states they are worthy of preservation means they are not worthy of preservation?  Do tell…

[Robert S]

I may drift off into the mystical here... but to me there is a significant difference between an object which has been used with respect for centuries, and one which has been stored in a display case.  There's a deep energy which is imparted with the combination of use, care and time, which differentiates certain objects.  I have some antique tools  which are now both valuable and irreplacable, but which I continue to use - really as an act of respect for the maker and past users.  Even certain sorts of wear can be part of that energy.  Obviously, I couldn't recommend using a nihonto for it's original intended use :-)... but being used and cherished by a skilled iaito practitioner to me would enhance the nihonto, even if there are some nearly microscopic scratches caused by drawing.  I also agree that there is something totally different, in an important way, about the experience of practicing with a centuries old nihonto, playing a centuries old violin, or using a very old handmade tool, even if a new one is objectively better.  You become a link in a chain of skill and, hopefully not overstating things, love.  Personally I think using a koto nihonto for iaito, with enormous respect and reverence, will enhance the blade.

 

Told you it was going to drift into the mystical :-)

[Nicolas Maestre]

21 minutes ago, Robert S said:

I may drift off into the mystical here... but to me there is a significant difference between an object which has been used with respect for centuries, and one which has been stored in a display case.  There's a deep energy which is imparted with the combination of use, care and time, which differentiates certain objects.  I have some antique tools  which are now both valuable and irreplacable, but which I continue to use - really as an act of respect for the maker and past users.  Even certain sorts of wear can be part of that energy.  Obviously, I couldn't recommend using a nihonto for it's original intended use :-)... but being used and cherished by a skilled iaito practitioner to me would enhance the nihonto, even if there are some nearly microscopic scratches caused by drawing.  I also agree that there is something totally different, in an important way, about the experience of practicing with a centuries old nihonto, playing a centuries old violin, or using a very old handmade tool, even if a new one is objectively better.  You become a link in a chain of skill and, hopefully not overstating things, love.  Personally I think using a koto nihonto for iaito, with enormous respect and reverence, will enhance the blade.

 

Told you it was going to drift into the mystical :-)

 

You just summed up how I feel about this, and you said it better than I was able to...

Thanks 🙏

[Franco D]

Do we own our swords or do the swords own us?

 

Are we samurai?

 

What is the purpose of practice?

 

What would these swords look like today if their owners had gone around chopping things up for the past many centuries or more?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[OceanoNox]

6 hours ago, Franco D said:

What would these swords look like today if their owners had gone around chopping things up for the past many centuries or more?

It has been said already, but in iai, one only cuts air (and occasionally, oneself).

 

18 hours ago, Emil said:

1. As an experienced iaidoka, you’re setting a standard for less experienced practitioners. Using a nihonto could inspire others to follow your example. 

 

2. The sword you train with should be the one you know best. Only using it on rare occasions goes against that, adjusting to its unique shape would probably lead to unnecessary wear.

To your points, using a shinken is an expectation in the long term. What is taught is that one starts with a bokuto, then moves on quite quickly to a non-sharpened blade, and above a certain level, a shinken is recommended by the sensei (and it can become mandatory for gradings or competitions). But typically, the sensei is telling the student what they ought to use, with all the points I raised before (the blade needs to fit the requirements of iai practice and size).

Knowing one's own sword well is necessary, but I remind you that practicing with only one sword is because it is relatively difficult for many to buy more than one sword. Famous Nakayama Hakudo did have several swords that he used in rotation. More to the point of iai, the sword is a tool, and anything can be used to replace it if necessary (I was told to use a wooden spoon or even a towel, or simply nothing).

Edited November 7 by OceanoNox

[Nicolas Maestre]

On 11/5/2024 at 11:39 PM, Franco D said:

 

This is not unlike the issue with amateur polishers. 

 

 

Desire is the cause of suffering.

 

 

Oh I missed that…

 

Let me ask you some questions… What about the “desire” to own then ? What about the desire to collect, amass even? Is it not the most selfish thing to do? Have you not succumbed to your desires when you took all these “art” swords out of Japan? Is this not, in itself, a significant threat posed with respect to preservation? I mean, what will happen to all these master pieces you guys seem to possess, when you die?? Would they not be better off with the Japanese, where it’s much more likely that they can find knowledgeable owners or caretakers? I personally think that in the rest of the world, there is a very high probability that our swords will end up badly after we die. And even if say, you write a testament to instruct that all your blades go to a museum after your passing, there is absolutely no guarantee that they will be treated well and that they will not end up rusting in the basement…

 

 

I, for one, decided to just get an authentic, genuine sword from a period of Japanese history that I find fascinating. That’s it. It will stop there. And it happens to be closer to kazuuchi mono than it is chumon uchi.

 

I hope that you guys realize that I’m playing devil’s advocate here… and that I do not think that everyone here owning art swords, Juyo token and what not, are dumb or should be ashamed for putting these treasures at risk. But I also feel like for a lot of people it’s much, much easier, to question others’ opinions and views than their own…