Giving a nihonto some use ?

[Nicolas Maestre]

Hi everyone,

 

Just wanted to share my thoughts, and confront them with y’all, on what I think is a touchy subject 😃

 

I bought my first and only nihonto 2.5 years ago, and it will probably remain the only one I’ve got for a while.

 

The reason is that I had not the intention of collecting, but more to get the most authentic piece of Japanese sword I could, meaning a nihonto, preferably koto, from the Muromachi era which I find fascinating.

 

I was able to find one within my budget, but unfortunately the koshirae left a lot to be desired. While the tosogu was really nice, saya was definitely subpar, of poor quality and not even fitting the blade properly. Tsuka had been modified, in the inside, to roughly fit the nakago. To the point where I am convinced the koshirae was not made for this blade… Anyway, as I hate the idea of having something that cannot serve its purpose, even just in theory (in life, in general I mean) I was kind of annoyed by that. So I decided to get a full koshirae be made by a French smith not so far from where I live, to give this blade the mountings it deserves, and to have a nice package.

 

 

But then I started to think that since it will now have a brand-new - most importantly “safe” - koshirae, why not use it ???? I mean, I have been studying iaïdo since 2006 now, have practiced with a shinken (Chinese, not shinsakuto) and I am very serious about it.

 

The steel iaïto I’m currently using is as good as new, and I have been practicing with it weekly for years. Not a scratch I would notice that was not there before.

 

Compared to my steel iaito, my nihonto’s polish looks similar. Absolutely not “in full polish”, but I would say it’s OK, and definitely a lot of minor scratches.

 

 

So how would you guys see the fact of actually give a nihonto a purpose, a use, other than looking at it in a once-a-month-while

-re-oiling-it fashion?

 

Do you feel it will hinder its preservation?

Do you feel this is nonsense and a disrespectful behavior?

 

Get your stones and sticks ready (not your swords!), I'm here 😁😜

[Alex A]

Nope.

 

Why, when you don't have to?

[Brian]

Your sword, you can do what you want with it. But if you are asking for advice from a forum dedicated to the preservation of Japanese swords...a tradition over 1000 years old, we would ask what you gain from increased risk?
 

[Toryu2020]

The default is NO.

There are plenty of shinken available for an authentic feel/practice.

Iaido practice and repeated cleanings will affect a polish, limiting the number of polishes increases the life of the sword...

[Nicolas Maestre]

24 minutes ago, Alex A said:

Nope.

 

Why, when you don't have to?

I sure don't have to, but what do we "have to do" in life, other than breathing and eating? To answer though, because it is extremely pleasant to use such a beautiful item, it's great to have a connection to the sword other than looking at it, and what a great feeling to wield it, in a respectful way, and feel like it's alive again... Honestly I could go on and on.

[Mark S.]

3 minutes ago, Nicolas Maestre said:

I sure don't have to, but what do we "have to do" in life, other than breathing and eating? To answer though, because it is extremely pleasant to use such a beautiful item, it's great to have a connection to the sword other than looking at it, and what a great feeling to wield it, in a respectful way, and feel like it's alive again... Honestly I could go on and on.

Then why ask us?

[Nicolas Maestre]

24 minutes ago, Brian said:

Your sword, you can do what you want with it. But if you are asking for advice from a forum dedicated to the preservation of Japanese swords...a tradition over 1000 years old, we would ask what you gain from increased risk?
 

 

Oh I was not asking for advice, but I thought it could be an interesting topic... To be clear my intentions were not to trigger anyone, in a provoking way or anything. I was genuinely curious about how the community would feel about it.

But since you are opposing "a tradition of 1000 years old", I feel like using a sword like that would be considered offensive. 

I, on the other hand, thought that taking good care of it, while trying to perpetuate Japanese swordsmanship with it, to the best I can, could be seen as respectful, and certainly not incompatible with the appreciation of this tradition, or the Japanese culture.

 

1 minute ago, Toryu2020 said:

The default is NO.

There are plenty of shinken available for an authentic feel/practice.

Iaido practice and repeated cleanings will affect a polish, limiting the number of polishes increases the life of the sword...

I see your point regarding repeated polishing. Not sure how much cleaning the blade with microfiber would visibly alter it's polish though, to the point that several polishes would be necessary during the time I'll be the owner of this sword.

[Alex A]

Its well known that a saya can scuff a blade, seen it myself.

 

This is silly thread, borderline troll.

 

I'm not saying you are, just alarm bells beginning to ring.

 

Anyways, its your sword, do as you will.

 

 

[Nicolas Maestre]

8 minutes ago, Mark S. said:

Then why ask us?

 

To... discuss? Debate? Like you know, what we do on a forum like this?

But I apologize if this topic is so irrelevant, so much so that it's not worth debating at all. 

 

To add to the subject, I thought that from a philosophical standpoint, it would be nice to think that items like that could still be used for what they were designed for, just in a different way since our time is so different... And I like to think that whoever forged it would be pleased to see his blade used by someone who deeply respects Japanese culture and traditions, almost 500 years in the future... 

[GeorgeLuucas]

Participating in the damaging of an antique Japanese sword, is not the way to show your respects to Japanese swordsmanship or culture. Quite the opposite. 

In my opinion, it's simple as that.

-Sam
 

[Nicolas Maestre]

2 minutes ago, Alex A said:

This is silly thread, borderline troll.

 

I'm not saying you are, just alarm bells beginning to ring.

 

 

It was not my intentions... I'm sorry if this is perceived that way... I thought not everyone would look at nihonto the same way as you guys are, and I was wrong it seems. 

Apologies, if silly and out of place, happy to see this thread locked.

[Alex A]

No worries, touchy subject lol

[palousian]

It is very interesting to compare my different interests on this point.  The most relevant comparison is violins.  In fact, there is a violin equivalent of NMB--maestronet.com--a similar forum devoted to violins.  While violins have only existed for about 500 years, the value of the finest examples far exceeds any nihonto in existence.  Arguably, the cultural significance of either item is about the same.  The difference is that no one tells a violinist with their exquisite 1706 Stradivari that they should put it in a case and never play music on it.   Even though playing on a violin can cause damage, there are highly-skilled luthiers who can repair these instruments and keep them alive.   There are some fabulous old violins in museums, but even then they are sometimes lent to great players to perform on (https://www.youtube....EBA5EA4076B&index=34). No one would say to a violinist that they should only play violins made recently; in fact my Magnus Anton Fichtl from 1775 gets a couple of hours of workout every day. While iaido, with the repeated drawing and sheathing, can damage a blade, I believe that even suburi would be considered out-of-line here.  I suspect the difference is that the actual intended use of nihonto, which is to say life-taking and life-giving, is no longer a living tradition.  Still, I would urge you all to give Nicholas a bit of a break here.  He makes a reasonable inquiry.

 

[Nicolas Maestre]

4 minutes ago, GeorgeLuucas said:

Participating in the damaging of an antique Japanese sword

 

See, this is where I'm not sure I understand. Well I can see why one would think this way if they have in mind a blade that is in full, perfect polish. In this case then yes, nukitsuke and noto will add minor scratches of course. But when the blade is already full of these so to speak, I'm not sure of the actual impact practice would have on it ☹️.

 

Maybe I'm biased because of my 15+ years of training, and the fact that I do not see (literally) the damages I have done to my blades. But I can totally be wrong, and maybe I'm not seeing the damages I have done ☹️

[Alex A]

Arnt the real expensive old violins said to be a better sound?, for listening to?. Same reason why folks buy old expensive guitars.

 

Don't see the comparison with a sword, sorry

 

What you can do with an old sword you can do just as well with a new sword.

 

Ps, drop the sword and break the point off, game over.

[palousian]

Just now, Alex A said:

Arnt the real expensive old violins said to be a better sound?, for listening to?. Same reason why folks buy old expensive guitars.

You are misinformed on this point.  In blind tests with modern violins and fabulous old Cremonese violins, generally the new instruments win the comparisons.  My bow, made by a major living archetier, is the equal or better of any old bow.  Some old violins are over-repaired and too rickety for performance, although their sound/playability is not a factor in their value. People like old violins much like they like old swords.  Time gives them soul, whatever that is.  But in a practical sense there is no difference, and I would say that, without question, playing an old violin is no disrespect to it.  I believe that it's only that playing a violin is very much a living tradition, while beheading your enemies is not.

[Alex A]

Anyways, we are not talking about sounds, this is BS

 

Preservation first, sorry

 

 

[Lewis B]

15 minutes ago, Alex A said:

 

 

Ps, drop the sword and break the point off, game over.

I thought that was the reason for the shortened bohi. Break the tip and form a new kissaki.  

[Lewis B]

23 minutes ago, palousian said:

People like old violins much like they like old swords.  Time gives them soul, whatever that is. 

Don't bring a violin to a sword fight. I think Nihonto trumps a violin in the soul stakes. I would say a better analogy is that people like old violins much like they like old vintage motorbikes.

The sword traditionally embodies the soul of the Samurai and families passed them down through countless generations. It's the reason so many numbering 100,000's still exist. We are so fortunate to have the opportunity to own blades that are not merely a corroded shadow of their former image.

 

 

[Alex A]

3 minutes ago, Lewis B said:

I thought that was the reason for the shortened bohi. Break the tip and form a new kissaki.  

 

Think I'm a bohi short of a kissaki having got involved in this one,

[Schneeds]

I can understand where Nicholas is coming from, but I just don't think the risk is worth it, especially when talking about koto blades. Like Alex pointed out, all it takes is one instance of something going wrong and the blade is ruined. 

 

Personally, I bought a cheap Zsey some time ago so I have a nice looking koshirae and something to swing around when the urge takes me. The only thing at risk is my house, and sometimes my wife. 

[Shugyosha]

1 hour ago, Lewis B said:

Don't bring a violin to a sword fight. I think Nihonto trumps a violin in the soul stakes. I would say a better analogy is that people like old violins much like they like old vintage motorbikes.

The sword traditionally embodies the soul of the Samurai and families passed them down through countless generations. It's the reason so many numbering 100,000's still exist. We are so fortunate to have the opportunity to own blades that are not merely a corroded shadow of their former image.

 

 

Nah, you can hurt people really badly with a musical instrument. It must be true, no one hangs around when I play my guitar. 
 

I’m sorry but I’m in the do your sword practice with a replica blade camp. These threads crop up occasionally and the answer is always the same. Brian, if it isn’t there already, can we have something in a FAQ section that we can just link to save time? Maybe somewhere near the one that deals with polishing your own sword and using it to chop wood? 

[Nicolas Maestre]

1 hour ago, palousian said:

It is very interesting to compare my different interests on this point. 

Thanks, it's indeed a very interesting take on the subject 🙏

 

I think I understand how "damaging" iaïdo practice is seen. And I honestly did not think it would be viewed this way. Sure I know it's not going to do any good, but to me it would almost be insignificant. Like you would not be able to tell with your naked eye.

But again, I can be wrong, and I can totally accept it and even reconsider my intent of using my nihonto for iaï... (Getting it back Saturday so that was some thinking ahead here...).

 

I'd like to add, related to the "why", that a good analogy I think is why millions of people go to museums to see art in person... I mean, take da Vinci's Mona Lisa for instance. Why do so many people want to see the real thing when you have thousands of pictures of it online, in books, etc. What's the point then???? Well, because there is spiritual connection, feelings and emotions going through your body, it transports you... 

 

Exact same thing with using a koto blade I think... At least to me.

 

But again, I might reconsider it, really.

[Nicolas Maestre]

34 minutes ago, Shugyosha said:

Brian, if it isn’t there already, can we have something in a FAQ section that we can just link to save time? Maybe somewhere near the one that deals with polishing your own sword and using it to chop wood? 

 

Now I'm the one that will be offended if you consider careful iaï practice with years of experience the same as chopping wood 😜

[Emil]

If this is a repetitive question here I understand there might be some built up frustration coming out here.

 

Otherwise I think the question was asked in a good manner. And from someone who has spent a considerable amount of his life developing his sword skills.

 

There are a lot of people out there who will ask nobody before they use Nihonto for backyard cutting until the sword looks like an old rusty saw.

 

I myself have cut tatami with a koto blade, but that was in Japan and not on my own initiative. I wouldn't dream of doing it outside of Japan.

 

My position is that we have to keep in mind that we are only the caretakers of these historic swords for a while before they continue down the history. Our lives are just a blip in the history of the sword, and if every blip wants a piece of the sword, it won't last very long. For each generation of users, the finite pool of antique katans gets even smaller. In the future, prestine katanas will be very rare.

 

By using this katana, you are not doing your best to preserve it for future generations. 

 

Previous owners throughout history did not take this well care of their swords and pass it on until it reached us, so we can start putting miles on them.

 

There is something beutifully humble about viewing yourself as the caretaker and not the end user of a sword.

 

I'd still say that after 15 years of Iai you probably have the skills to not do much damage, but I'd rather not anyway. For the Japanese the blades serve ritualistic and even religious purposes. They are believed to expel evil and protect the house from bad spirits.

 

Maybe adopting a similar mindset and start viewing it as your lucky charm will make it feel more like it has a purpose?

 

[Shugyosha]

No, but some of the blades that show up on here have had a beating.  Joking apart, I ultimately it’s your own blade, if it isn’t damaged by using it for Iaido, no harm done…but I wouldn’t risk it myself. 
 

Sorry Emil, your post arrived while I was replying to Nicolas. 

[Bruce Pennington]

3 hours ago, Nicolas Maestre said:

it is extremely pleasant to use such a beautiful item, it's great to have a connection to the sword other than looking at it, and what a great feeling to wield it, in a respectful way, and feel like it's alive again..

 

I love the spirit and intent in this.  We often talk about keeping our swords "as is" because it is in line with the life of the sword.  If one really feels that way, then I compare our storing our swords in boxes to caging lions and tigers in cages.  

 

I love to see guys with restored vintage cars out on the weekend for a drive.  They don't drive them everyday, and when they do get them out, it is done carefully, no hot-rodding.  It keeps the car alive.  They shouldn't be stored in a huge garage, never to roll again.

 

I also respect those who fear the damage that may happen to a blade, which is why the 1704 violin or the 1934 Chevy is used by experienced people, very carefully.

 

2 cents 

[Lexvdjagt]

As a Koto collector who owned a sword that had been used to cut mats before, the damage is more severe then you think

I had bought this sword, taken a good look at it, and only realized at home, it was covered in very small and sometimes minor scratches. But also some damage to the cutting edge, maybe 1/4 of MM. But this pained me to look at, the blade was early Koto, and extremely beautiful, even papered. Please never use these swords as a cutting instrument, it makes future collectors like me very sad and lowers the value of the blade significantly.

 

 

Greetings,
Lex

 

 

[cluckdaddy76]

I came into a large collection all at once, and I had one blade in poor shape (the notes that came with it did say this was a project blade). I made a joke about turning it into the best machete around in a post on here a bit ago but am glad I did not. I took the advice of members here and what was once a rusty piece has come a long way with just my patience and basic cleaning advice from members. At first, I had similar feelings as you, that it would be honorable to put it back in use. Now that I have been studying and will call myself officially a novice collector, my feelings have changed and agree they should be preserved. I have heard there are some decent options out there if you do want to upgrade your practice blade for cutting, even possibly a tamahagane blade made more recently. This is only something I have read about, but what I have heard is lesser-known smiths sometimes make extra blades beyond what they are legally able to produce each month just to survive.   To me it sounds like your blade in question may be better off putting preservation energy into it. You mentioned you basically had a new koshirae made which is not cheap as we all know, what about getting a new polish on this blade? In the end for me, I chose to preserve as once you damage it, there is no going back. I look like I am ending up with a nice Mino-Den wakazashi and am happy with my decision. Hope this helps.

 

Jason

[Franco D]

1 hour ago, Lexvdjagt said:

Please never use these swords as a cutting instrument

 

The problem here is that sooner or later an "art" sword will be ruined by someone who lacks the knowledge and better judgment necessary not to proceed.  This is not unlike the issue with amateur polishers. 

 

 

Desire is the cause of suffering.