Tachi and Katana identify

[Bosco]

How can you tell a mumei sword is a Tachi or Katana ?

 
Base on the Curvature or else ?.  On the other hand I can see some Katana with Tachi mei as well. I’m a bit confuse here. 
 

By the way, I’m after a Koto Tachi with a nice curvature. Been looking through lot of websites but couldn’t find anything less than $6000 with paperwork and blade in great condition. Where do you guys shop ?. Thanks in advance.

[Francis Wick]

1 hour ago, Bosco said:

How can you tell a mumei sword is a Tachi or Katana ?

 
Base on the Curvature or else ?.  On the other hand I can see some Katana with Tachi mei as well. I’m a bit confuse here. 
 

By the way, I’m after a Koto Tachi with a nice curvature. Been looking through lot of websites but couldn’t find anything less than $6000 with paperwork and blade in great condition. Where do you guys shop ?. Thanks in advance.

Strictly speaking you could only definitively call a blade a tachi if it is signed tachi mei. A katana is signed on the other side of the nakago. Once suriage it is not possible to make this distinction any more. However a mumei blade in tachi fittings will be called a tachi by most ( but you can find katana mei blades in tachi fittings also ). Most ( not all ) pre muromachi blades were signed tachi mei so once shortened will still be called a tachi ( suriage tachi ), if you can positively identify the school or smith and hence the age of the blade. My understanding might not be all correct but there is one opinion 
 

keep an eye on auctions. Good blades sometimes come up for sale. If in high end tachi fittings they will usually still command high prices. I bought a signed koto tachi in shirasaya last year for $1400 at an auction so they do come up for sale from time to time. Just remember auction houses often charge 25-30% commission and then often high prices for shipping. 
 

Hope that helps 

[Bosco]

8 hours ago, Francis Wick said:

Strictly speaking you could only definitively call a blade a tachi if it is signed tachi mei. A katana is signed on the other side of the nakago. Once suriage it is not possible to make this distinction any more. However a mumei blade in tachi fittings will be called a tachi by most ( but you can find katana mei blades in tachi fittings also ). Most ( not all ) pre muromachi blades were signed tachi mei so once shortened will still be called a tachi ( suriage tachi ), if you can positively identify the school or smith and hence the age of the blade. My understanding might not be all correct but there is one opinion 
 

keep an eye on auctions. Good blades sometimes come up for sale. If in high end tachi fittings they will usually still command high prices. I bought a signed koto tachi in shirasaya last year for $1400 at an auction so they do come up for sale from time to time. Just remember auction houses often charge 25-30% commission and then often high prices for shipping. 
 

Hope that helps 

Thank you Francis, your input is really helpful.  Im looking to purchase my second Nihonto, since my first one is still on the way from Japan and not sure If I was overpaid for it. It was a Wakizashi early Edo period by Morikuni, signature was really blur and it doesn’t have certification beside the registration. Paid $2000 AUD for it. After doing a bit of research, i found that Koto Tachi will be only nihonto im buying from now. Love the curve and the soul of it.

[DKR]

17 hours ago, Francis Wick said:

Strictly speaking you could only definitively call a blade a tachi if it is signed tachi mei. A katana is signed on the other side of the nakago. 

 

And now you explain why some famous Hizen smith , like Tadayoshi or Masahiro ( Mainline) always make a Tachi mei on a blades what definitively are Katana.

 sorry, but I can't resist. 

[Shugyosha]

As has been said above, I think that if you are buying an unsigned, unpapered blade or one that is suriage/ o suriage then you are guessing at whether it was once a tachi or a katana unless there is something to suggest that the blade is sufficiently old to position it before the time when the katana became the weapon of choice. If you really want a tachi, then save the money and buy something where you know what you are getting, otherwise it's just speculation. Or as Francis suggests, bide your time and be lucky.

[Bosco]

41 minutes ago, Shugyosha said:

As has been said above, I think that if you are buying an unsigned, unpapered blade or one that is suriage/ o suriage then you are guessing at whether it was once a tachi or a katana unless there is something to suggest that the blade is sufficiently old to position it before the time when the katana became the weapon of choice. If you really want a tachi, then save the money and buy something where you know what you are getting, otherwise it's just speculation. Or as Francis suggests, bide your time and be lucky.

I see, but can we use certain measurement to determine at all like the deep of sori ?. 

[DKR]

What type of sori ?

Saki sori, Koshi sori, Tori sori......?

[Benjamin]

In my comprehension, it is more a mounting terminology than a blade terminology.

Before Muromachi period, katana and wakizashi didn't exist : all long blades was necessarly tachi, worn cutting edge toward bottom (except "tanto" of course, and there is the pecular case of kodachi "short tachi").

Then between muromachi and Edo, the katana emerged and became "fashion", lots of swordsmiths made blades intended to be worn as katana and signed them in omote, or reshaped old tachi to mount them in katana. IMO, In that case the blade itself was not a really  tachi or katana but a blade worn as tachi or katana.

Maybe Hizen swordsmiths continued old tradition of ura mei despite the sword, and this is perfectly understandable : the smith is not the one who choose the use of the blade, that's the warrior.

Sometimes our modern way to desire classification must be confronted with a more diachronic point of view of language evolution.

 

NB : A perfect exemple : I said "tanto" about pre-muromachi  but Nakahara in "Facts and fundamentals of Japanese swords" explain that it is a modern term that didn't exist not so long ago.

[Lewis B]

I believe the blade shape (as well as length) was dictating the sugata. A different curvature was better suited for deployment of very long blades when on horseback vs on foot when a shorter blade was preferable.

[Jussi Ekholm]

In general it is bit difficult to find an old tachi that would be really desirable from online sources for under 1,000,000 yen. With the current exchange rate it would be c. 6,500$ in Japan. You'll need to add shipping possible taxes etc. on top of that. When a decent tachi in this price bracket pops up at online dealers they will usually sell quite fast. My recommendation would be perhaps try to resist buying urge and try to save up to 1,5-2 million yen, as in that range there are lots of fairly good ones to choose from but of course the price is quite a bit higher.

 

Here are 2 cheap signed tachi that are currently for sale in Japan but I would personally skip both of these.

Uda Tomotsugu, 580,000 yen : https://www.toukenko...i&katanaA071223.html

Masanobu (Unknown province) 550,000 yen : https://nihontou.jp/...gu/tachi/094/00.html

[MrTT]

Is this a Tachi ?

 

Seller says =

Nihonto Tachi Katana "Hoju" in Beautiful Handachi antique original koshirae

Kamakura period (1185-1333)

[Jussi Ekholm]

It is tricky piece. Personally I might see it as a tachi. However NBTHK has judged it as a katana and I respect their authority. Also one important thing in their attribution is that the sword is judged as 後代宝寿 (Later Hōju). Now while it might feel like a minor remark it actually has a dramatical effect to the appreciation value and financial value of the sword. I am personally super interested in Hōju school, and their work goes from Kamakura and Nanbokuchō up to Muromachi. When there is mumei attribution 宝寿 (Hōju) is used to cover Kamakura & Nanbokuchō works and 後代宝寿 (Later Hōju) is used for Muromachi period work.

 

If someone would show me that sword my first guess might be Muromachi period tachi without looking at NBTHK judgement paper.

[Bosco]

4 hours ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

In general it is bit difficult to find an old tachi that would be really desirable from online sources for under 1,000,000 yen. With the current exchange rate it would be c. 6,500$ in Japan. You'll need to add shipping possible taxes etc. on top of that. When a decent tachi in this price bracket pops up at online dealers they will usually sell quite fast. My recommendation would be perhaps try to resist buying urge and try to save up to 1,5-2 million yen, as in that range there are lots of fairly good ones to choose from but of course the price is quite a bit higher.

 

Here are 2 cheap signed tachi that are currently for sale in Japan but I would personally skip both of these.

Uda Tomotsugu, 580,000 yen : https://www.toukenko...i&katanaA071223.html

Masanobu (Unknown province) 550,000 yen : https://nihontou.jp/...gu/tachi/094/00.html

Thank you for your advice. Indeed 1m to 2m yen seems to be nicer range for antique tachi.

[Lewis B]

4 hours ago, MrTT said:

Is this a Tachi ?

 

Seller says =

Nihonto Tachi Katana "Hoju" in Beautiful Handachi antique original koshirae

Kamakura period (1185-1333)

Be careful with that dealer. Unscrupulous seller. I would look elsewhere. 

[Robert S]

Not to mention that it is not really handachi koshirae - looks like a mix and match grouping of pieces.