Bohi Short of Kissaki

[Francis Wick]

Hallo

 

Does anyone know what this style of boho is called ? Where the boho ends short of the kissaki ? Presumably this was done to ensure that when the kissaki is damaged in battle and has to be reshaped , it would leave enough steel to reshape the kissaki. What era was this done ? Would it be indicative of a certain era of sword production ? Any ideas on this ? 
 

thank you 

 

Francis 

[ChrisW]

I highly doubt the bohi termination point has much to do with how much boshi you have left. If on a sword with regular bohi, the kissaki has to be reshaped and includes the bohi, then you'd probably lost all tempering in the point anyways.
 

But I could be very mistaken also.

[Bazza]

Francis, do have this sword checked out very, very carefully.  At least one Kamakura period sword I have seen had bohi finishing short like this.  If I remember correctly it was a Go Yoshihiro...

 

BaZZa.

[Lewis B]

46 minutes ago, Bazza said:

Francis, do have this sword checked out very, very carefully.  At least one Kamakura period sword I have seen had bohi finishing short like this.  If I remember correctly it was a Go Yoshihiro...

 

BaZZa.

Correct. Seems to be a feature on his blades. Here is an example that got TH papers for "Den Go". The owner has just had a top level polish in anticipation, I assume, of submission for Juyo. It will be fascinating for me to see how this Shinsa's. Some aspects of the blade are not typical for Go like the Kaen boshi. 

 

https://www.kinghous.../go-yoshihiro-katana

[PNSSHOGUN]

If memory serves me correctly, original Bo-hi finishing well below the Yokote is a Kantei point for Koto. However, telling if a Bo-hi is original to a sword is another matter entirely.

[Francis Wick]

9 hours ago, Bazza said:

Francis, do have this sword checked out very, very carefully.  At least one Kamakura period sword I have seen had bohi finishing short like this.  If I remember correctly it was a Go Yoshihiro...

 

BaZZa.

I’ve seen this on older swords and was told it was done to “ save metal in case “ thank you 

[Francis Wick]

9 hours ago, Lewis B said:

Correct. Seems to be a feature on his blades. Here is an example that got TH papers for "Den Go". The owner has just had a top level polish in anticipation, I assume, of submission for Juyo. It will be fascinating for me to see how this Shinsa's. Some aspects of the blade are not typical for Go like the Kaen boshi. 

 

https://www.kinghous.../go-yoshihiro-katana

Interesting and complex and beautiful sword indeed 

[Francis Wick]

7 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

If memory serves me correctly, original Bo-hi finishing well below the Yokote is a Kantei point for Koto. However, telling if a Bo-hi is original to a sword is another matter entirely.

Indeed these were added later often, as did many other things like horimono etc 

[Jussi Ekholm]

I believe the Japanese term for this is 樋先下がる (Hisaki-sagaru).

 

It could be giving some direction on school and era, however like John said above then the hi would need to be original. Judging that for me would be very difficult especially on ō-suriage swords. Here is an example on a sword that I have and I am almost certain the hi is added on later.

 

[Francis Wick]

8 minutes ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

I believe the Japanese term for this is 樋先下がる (Hisaki-sagaru).

 

It could be giving some direction on school and era, however like John said above then the hi would need to be original. Judging that for me would be very difficult especially on ō-suriage swords. Here is an example on a sword that I have and I am almost certain the hi is added on later.

 

Hi Jussi thank you, your sword looks like a really big blade ! Probably Nambokucho ?

[Brian]

It's from the auction currently running mentioned elsewhere

 

[Ghoul]

This is an interesting thread! I have recently acquired a hira-zukuri wakizashi with two different styles of bo-hi that both end way back from the kissaki, and I've been wondering as to why too:

 

 

As others have said though, the hamon is so close to the edge I can't see how in my case reshaping the kissaki would have been the main motivation for this blade or the OP.

 

If the bo-hi had been added to remove some forging flaws though (which would make sense on mine because there are still quite a few kizu present) then perhaps it just didn't need to go any further, perhaps to prevent weakening the point/taking more time for no reason?

 

[Francis Wick]

38 minutes ago, Ghoul said:

This is an interesting thread! I have recently acquired a hira-zukuri wakizashi with two different styles of bo-hi that both end way back from the kissaki, and I've been wondering as to why too:

 

 

As others have said though, the hamon is so close to the edge I can't see how in my case reshaping the kissaki would have been the main motivation for this blade or the OP.

 

If the bo-hi had been added to remove some forging flaws though (which would make sense on mine because there are still quite a few kizu present) then perhaps it just didn't need to go any further, perhaps to prevent weakening the point/taking more time for no reason?

 

Hi yes horimono were often added to remove flaws including bohi. 

[gordpete]

This is a feature typical of the Nambokuchô period. And it is indeed done in case the kissaki is broken and then reshaped.

[Francis Wick]

18 minutes ago, gordpete said:

This is a feature typical of the Nambokuchô period. And it is indeed done in case the kissaki is broken and then reshaped.

Ok thank you, I just saw it and thought it pretty odd to do that because the typical bohi ends much further down the blade usually. It would make sende that if you leave that much steel you could reshape a broken striking surface and the bohi would still function to make the blade lighter and the kissaki can be brought closer and closer if needs be. We always think we know it all but people were thinking about these things centuries ago ! 

[Francis Wick]

3 hours ago, Brian said:

It's from the auction currently running mentioned elsewhere

 

Hi Brian thank you for the great forum. I bought the sword and will post info as I get it either 👍🏻 or 😞 . I sent a good donation to show my thanks and appreciation. 

[Bazza]

19 hours ago, Lewis B said:

Correct. Seems to be a feature on his blades. Here is an example that got TH papers for "Den Go". The owner has just had a top level polish in anticipation, I assume, of submission for Juyo. It will be fascinating for me to see how this Shinsa's. Some aspects of the blade are not typical for Go like the Kaen boshi. 

 

https://www.kinghous.../go-yoshihiro-katana

Lewis et al, to my eye the boshi looks more hakkikake than kaen???  I'm sure I've read that 'somewhere' and I'll try to find the reference.

 

BaZZa.

[Brian]

11 hours ago, Francis Wick said:

Hi Brian thank you for the great forum. I bought the sword and will post info as I get it either 👍🏻 or 😞 . I sent a good donation to show my thanks and appreciation. 

Thank you Francis, much appreciated.
Looked like a decent sword, looking forward to seeing more when you get it.

[Francis Wick]

Here are some more pics. Once I receive it I will take more pics of it. It looks O Suriage and possibly old. Nagasa 28.2 inches and one plugged mekugi ana which is likely the original so it would have been substantially longer ( around 32-33 inch Nagasa ) to start with I would guesstimate

[Francis Wick]

2 minutes ago, Francis Wick said:

Here are some more pics. Once I receive it I will take more pics of it. It looks O Suriage and possibly old. Nagasa 28.2 inches and one plugged mekugi ana which is likely the original so it would have been substantially longer ( around 32-33 inch Nagasa ) to start with I would guesstimate

Could also be shinto or shin Shinto recreation of suriage koto 

[Rivkin]

One needs a naked sword shot directly from above to see sugata with minimal lens distortion, example of activity etc. It seems to be in modern polish, should not be too much a problem to roughly understand what it is.

By itself bohi like this is not a strong-specific kantei feature unless someone wants to enlighten me.

[Francis Wick]

1 hour ago, Rivkin said:

One needs a naked sword shot directly from above to see sugata with minimal lens distortion, example of activity etc. It seems to be in modern polish, should not be too much a problem to roughly understand what it is.

By itself bohi like this is not a strong-specific kantei feature unless someone wants to enlighten me.

Some folks seem to think it’s a kantei point for nambokucho era, but I can find any strong reference to this effect. Once I have the blade I will take better pics. 

[Jussi Ekholm]

I admit I am sometimes going way too deep into things. I have been actually quite curious as some things like these hi endings are sometimes quoted as being features of some smiths. Likewise I have read the kissaki repair theory from multiple sources. Now I had some free time today and I did some digging, and indeed this type of hi ending can happen on Nanbokuchō period swords. However the ones stopping a lot short of yokote I would personally see as aesthetic choices rather that allowing extra space for kissaki repair.

 

I also searched every Gō attributed sword I have in my references (as this has been in several sources suggested as feature of his style). I currently have info on 64 swords that have attributed to Gō (I left out 2 tantō from this). Now out of those exactly half, 32 feature some sort of carvings on the blade. 10 of these have the hi ending short of yokote, few of them extremely far and 3 of them just barely. 17 of the swords have in my view pretty standard hi ending, 2 of the swords feature very short hi on lower portion of the blade. 3 of the swords have horimono. So while it does happen in work attributed to Gō I would not put extreme amount of weigh towards it. As I was browising items it did happen on works by many various Nanbokuchō smiths. Also as I am obsessed with ōdachi I did some viewing on them and it did occur on some however I wouldn't put significant importance towards it. I would personally see the hi stopping well short of yokote mainly as aesthetical decision.

[Lewis B]

45 minutes ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

I currently have info on 64 swords that have attributed to Gō (I left out 2 tantō from this). 

And I'll bet a proportion of those are actually Senjuin Yoshihiro. Before the signed and dated Senjuin Yoshihiro blade was discovered, blades with both Yamato and Soshuden features would have weighed heavily towards a Go attribution. 

 

And let's examine those numbers. He died at age 27-30, was according to history a Samurai retainer for a Daimyo, which means his time would have been split with different responsibilities. Could he really have had enough time to make 64 blades and thats ignoring the number that have been lost to time or yet to be identified to have 64 exist today. There has to be a significant question mark over many of those old attributions. 

[Franco D]

1 hour ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

I would personally see the hi stopping well short of yokote mainly as aesthetical decision.

 

Jussi, if you were talking about an Edo period sword, then perhaps. Otherwise, it would be well to be reminded that form follows function.

What was the "environment" at the time in history of the sword being discussed? During feudal times it was unlikely aesthetics took precedents.

Form follows function.

 

 

[Francis Wick]

7 hours ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

I admit I am sometimes going way too deep into things. I have been actually quite curious as some things like these hi endings are sometimes quoted as being features of some smiths. Likewise I have read the kissaki repair theory from multiple sources. Now I had some free time today and I did some digging, and indeed this type of hi ending can happen on Nanbokuchō period swords. However the ones stopping a lot short of yokote I would personally see as aesthetic choices rather that allowing extra space for kissaki repair.

 

I also searched every Gō attributed sword I have in my references (as this has been in several sources suggested as feature of his style). I currently have info on 64 swords that have attributed to Gō (I left out 2 tantō from this). Now out of those exactly half, 32 feature some sort of carvings on the blade. 10 of these have the hi ending short of yokote, few of them extremely far and 3 of them just barely. 17 of the swords have in my view pretty standard hi ending, 2 of the swords feature very short hi on lower portion of the blade. 3 of the swords have horimono. So while it does happen in work attributed to Gō I would not put extreme amount of weigh towards it. As I was browising items it did happen on works by many various Nanbokuchō smiths. Also as I am obsessed with ōdachi I did some viewing on them and it did occur on some however I wouldn't put significant importance towards it. I would personally see the hi stopping well short of yokote mainly as aesthetical decision.

Very interesting info Jussi

[Tohagi]

Very nice and informative topic on a very specific point.

 

My two cents: if we admit the reshape kissaki theory, we must consider that it would need a new temper (wich will not be an issue in war times)...

And we should find some examples showing signs of retempering as "water shadow" ... isn't it?  

Best regards, 

 

Éric 

[David Flynn]

If my memory serves me well, I remember reading that, during the Mongol Invasion, swords with Hi,  ending or going through to the Boshi, were found to break, more easily.  

[Jussi Ekholm]

Sometimes even small things like this can lead into great discussion and lots of thinking.

 

Now as ōdachi are my passion, I decided to do this same look into historical ōdachi that I have in my resources. Actually I will do some more digging into them on another matter so this was good preparation dig. For this I will only use Kamakura-Nanbokuchō-Muromachi ōdachi and I was super happy to count that I currently have 86 of these. I will leave out the Edo period ōdachi from this but I was bit surprised to see that I have 43 of them in resources too.

 

33 of the old ōdachi have normal hi termination

24 of them do not feature hi at all

10 have horimono of various type

3 of them have hi termination well short of yokote (as was the topic of the thread)

2 of them only feature a short hi

14 I do not have a clear picture of kissaki area, some of these have hi but I cannot see hi well enough from tiny picture of a massive sword

 

Even I have to admit that some of the most massive ōdachi were not used in battlefield (however there are actual records of some huge ones been used in battles) but the super massive are few in total number. Still I would think that if there would be a really practical purpose to terminate hi well short of yokote it would have been done more often. As majority of these are indeed battlefield weapons. I do think my choice of words might have been bit incorrect, perhaps I should have maybe used spritual instead of aesthetical. For example I don't think horimono in general have functional purpose for practical use but they most likely have extremely strong spiritual meaning which could have very well been psychologically much more important than some tiny functional factor.

 

I think I will some day try to do this same with a smith or 2 who have been noted of having used this type of termination, and from whom I have lots of signed tachi examples to provide data.

[Rivkin]

I would add my general experience that all "function"-based arguments are 19th-20th century attempts to reconstruct why things were the way they were in the 12th or 14th century.

Attempts often made by people with zero understanding of metallurgy (and thus not realizing their "concerns" are either false or could have been addressed easily by other methods) but most importantly the arguments produced without comparison how similar problem was addressed elsewhere.

This being said it does not negate the possibility that original thinking leading to appearance of such features was also faulty (i.e. "fashion-based") and driven by some concerns that are spurrious.

 

Its common today, it was common 1000 years ago. If you compare a Japanese made chip you will notice quite a few things like extra operations to clean the non-essential byproducts of technological processes, purposeful asymmetric arrangements of elements, which are different from American made ones with the same functionality. The reason is that the real data is noisy and its easy to come up with a theoretical "concern" which might or might not be relevant but sounds scary enough one needs to take precautions against it.

Because Chief Designers in Japan and the US are generally different people, you end up with a different culture of how electronics should look like.

In combat its even worse since it does not happen very often, when it happens its usually in random, multi-factor environment and participants when asked immediately afterwords have no cohesive understanding of what in hell they just went through. Its scary, its noisy and you don't see much beyond a few feet in front of you.

Unless a war tool is next to unusable even novadays it often takes 2-4 decent size wars to realize what works and what's not.

 

Were the faint signatures on early Japanese swords such because otherwise nakago would break? Its doubtful because you look at continental development of the same sword form and the nakago is even thinner in the center. Is it possible some very influential Japanese swordsmith believed it to be a concern and influenced the tradition for hundreds of years to come? Yes. 

There are cultures where grooves are cut off-center and asymmetric on both sides because otherwise the blade will be "too thin". And obviously the rest of the world generally dislikes asymmetric blades.