Benjamin Posted October 23 Report Posted October 23 I was surprised that I didn't found an equivalent post in search bar, or didn't have the good key-words... sorry if I missed it. In fact my post was inspired by the gokaden collection of Jean you could easily find. Incoming in the hobbie of collecting nihonto made me wonder : What to buy ? For an an enthusiast all is beautiful : choices are hard to make and sacrifices are needed. Highlighting the necessity to create a coherent collection. So I wanted to make this little survey to implement our comprehension of the way to collect (or just to pick ideas), to understand the soul of your collection : 1 - What is the "theme" of your collection ? (expl : gokaden ? That one smith ? That era ? Horimono-maniac ? etc..) 2 - What is the "aim" of your collection ? (expl : one of each type ? The one sword ? As much as possible ? etc...) 3 - What is the "border" of your collection ? (expl : only papered ? Not less than Jumyo ? Only tanto ? Always koshirae ? etc...) 4 - What is your "behaviour" in collecting ? (expl : buying - learning - selling ? Making a museum-room at home ? Stocking until not knowing where to put them ? etc...) 5 - What is your "purpose" in collecting ? (expl : knowledge ? Community membership ? Investment ? Pure appreciation ? etc...) edit : 6 - At what stade are you ? (expl : starting ? Achieved or nearly achieved ? evolving ? etc...) That's just a canvas. Feel free to respond as you want. Benjamin 5 2 Quote
Lewis B Posted October 23 Report Posted October 23 Good question Benjamin. I think the reponses are going to be quite varied and informative. You should perhaps provide your experiences and goals as someone like me, a bit of a novice collector. I'll get the ball rolling. 1 - What is the "theme" of your collection ? (expl : gokaden ? That one smith ? That era ? Horimono-maniac ? etc..). Koto only and styles that appeal to my sense of aesthetics. This leads me to the Soshu, Yamato and Ichimonji Schools from the Kamakura and Nanbokucho eras 2 - What is the "aim" of your collection ? (expl : one of each type ? The one sword ? As much as possible ? etc...). I can't afford the best of the best for each School, so again I buy what appeals, initially the sugata, then the jihada and then the overall condition. The maker/School is secondary but still a consideration. Unfortunately blades from this era are mostly mumei and generally given broad attributions eg Yamato Senjuin, Ko Uda, Ichimonji 3 - What is the "border" of your collection ? (expl : only papered ? Not less than Jumyo ? Only tanto ? Always koshirae ? etc...) Only papered TH or Juyo. I am focusing on Katana and Tachi but will eventually get a tanto or 2. I feel with more knowledge my price threshold will be around 50-60k Euro and with that I hope to acquire an Ichimonji (preferably Fukuoka Ichimonji) or a Norishige. At this moment in time I think 25-30K is my upper limit for a Juyo blade. Very little interest in Koshirae although I'm warming to the Tensho piece that was made for my Y. Shikkake. Give me a shirasaya with sayagaki and I'm happy. 4 - What is your "behaviour" in collecting ? (expl : buying - learning - selling ? Making a museum-room at home ? Stocking until not knowing where to put them ? etc...). I buy for a couple of reasons. Historical significance, technological excellence and appearance. Secondary is investment. Koto blades are not cheap but I feel the monetary investment is justified. Call it portfolio diversification. I would rather put some money in a few blades than keep it in the bank, and actually enjoy the custodianship. My aires will know exactly what I have so that these assets will be handled appropriately for future generations. I also enjoy the learning process. As I've learned attributions are not always clearcut and open for discussion. My 2nd purchase is a good example. Papered for Senjuin but the polish is old resulting with a jihada with far more to offer. I intend to get it polished in Japan and resubmit. As part of this 'hobby' I enjoy the process of learning how to take a representative closeup photographic archive. A good macro lens will see so much more detail than these aging eyes ever will. I find the photos put up by online vendors fail dismally to offer an accurate impression of the blade, notable exceptions being Yuhindo (the late Darcy Brockbank and Ted Tenold) and Unique Japan (Pablo Kuntz and Eric B) 5 - What is your "purpose" in collecting ? (expl : knowledge ? Community membership ? Investment ? Pure appreciation ? etc...) All of the above tbh. I find connecting with like minded collectors to be a thoroughly enjoyable and rewarding experience. I especially enjoy the interactions on the forum and the in person connections at the NBTHK-EB meetings. Some people have an incredible knowledge base and understanding of Nihonto. edit : 6 - At what stade are you ? (expl : starting ? Achieved or nearly achieved ? evolving ? etc...) I had been pondering a Nihonto purchase for about 4 years before I took the plunge. Bought a couple of books, studied the internet, asked questions and attended the Japan Art Expo in Utrecht where I ended up purchasing my first sword, a Yamato Shikkake. I felt seeing the blade in person gave me the confidence to make an informed choice. Buying sight unseen on the internet can be a minefield. I also try to see as many Juyo and above blades to have a reference point so I can compare lesser or lower papered blades and make an assessment. Those are just a few quick musings during my lunch break. Look forward to hearing what others say. 5 3 2 Quote
oli Posted October 23 Report Posted October 23 Yes good questions, as a beginner i often ask this questions myself, actual state: 1 - What is the "theme" of your collection ? This changed from time to time, but gokaden is a good point, for my on all time epochs. I would like to have a few good swords from koto, shinto, shinshinto, gendai 2 - What is the "aim" of your collection ? my only aim is to learn more and to appreciate my blades 3 - What is the "border" of your collection ? unfortunately money ,and if the blades need a polish or other restaurations 4 - What is your "behaviour" in collecting ? Buying, learning and trying to sell, selling is i think the hardest point, learning the most fun 5 - What is your "purpose" in collecting ? Learning, also from the perspective of a martial artist of old Japanese martial arts (Koryu). 6 - At what stade are you ? starting 3 1 Quote
Benjamin Posted October 23 Author Report Posted October 23 Thank you Lewis, indeed I can provide my "experience", but I collect for one year so I'm very beginner : 1 - Theme : At the exact time, the theme is ... nihonto !! . There is no theme as I have 4 swords : A strange piece of steel in tachi koshirae, probably muromachi, probably kaze-uchi with a koshirae that please the non connoiseurs but is clearly not of "Japanese quality". A shinto JTK papered sandai Kunisada (yes, I know about JTK...) A shinto NBTHK TH nidai Kanewaka (Matasuke) in koshirae. A Koto NBTHK TH Sadatsuna in koshirae. I take the risk to buy online without seeing sword : work, family, other activites and place of living don't let me much choice. 2 - Aim : That's the way of my question. Now I dream of a Yamato Shizu or a Bizen den tachi, so that could lead me to a "6 den" collection (Gokaden + shinto) as I like yamato ko-hoki, tegai and all yamashiro school, one sword of each style... But I dream as well of a kikusui-to, horimono swords, or a fine Naginata so... fortunately I'm not enough fortunate to buy all of that if you let me the word game. 3 - Border : For now : only papered, and I love koshirae as all beginners, but I'm starting to examine more blades and less koshirae. 4 - Behaviour : Buying... or refrain to buy. And make an exposition room for my pleasure to see them. For now I'm not in mood fo selling. I love my swords (3 of them at least). 5 - Purpose : Multi-purpose for me : learning, appreciation, sharing with other and investment (I must admit I bought the last one seeing the weakness of the yen), enhancing my koryu training and respond to long time refrained fascination for nihonto. 6 - Stade : Searching leading principle. 5 Quote
GeorgeLuucas Posted October 23 Report Posted October 23 My ultimate goal in Nihonto collecting, is to admire and appreciate the workmanship of Japanese swords. Learn the features, and be able to recognize high quality from the rest. Getting better at Kantei is another goal. The theme of my collection (for now), is Yamato-den, and Yamato influenced works. Although, I intend to collect anything that's in my budget that I enjoy / believe I can learn from. I prefer KOTO items, for the romance of "OLD" . My only requirement for now is that it's in decent polish without fatal flaws - ideally but not necessarily has papers. The soul of my collection is the Katana I inherited from my grandfather. Early shinto late Kanemoto school, in full koshirae. It's not high quality or in great condition, but it's very special to me. I really like handmade stuff, and to me, Nihonto is the epitome of excellence in handmade craftsmanship. My "state of collecting" is always evolving, growing, and changing - and I consider myself a beginner collector, especially in Nihonto. Cheers! -Sam 7 1 Quote
Franco D Posted October 23 Report Posted October 23 4 hours ago, GeorgeLuucas said: My ultimate goal in Nihonto collecting, is to admire and appreciate the workmanship of Japanese swords. Learn the features, and be able to recognize high quality from the rest. Getting better at Kantei is another goal. The Japanese write that kantei is the foundation for nihonto appreciation. Sato sensei writes in the NBTHK English Journals that judging quality is the second step in kantei (although, it is all too often a step that is overlooked). If you really wish to learn and get better at kantei make it an objective. And as far as that goes, kantei is and should be the collector's guide to collecting nihonto. 4 Quote
GeorgeLuucas Posted October 23 Report Posted October 23 1 hour ago, Franco D said: If you really wish to learn and get better at kantei make it an objective. Thank you, good advice! Making it a priority -Sam 1 Quote
Toryu2020 Posted October 23 Report Posted October 23 Sam - If Kantei is of interest don't forget the NCJSC has regular monthly Kantei sessions on ZOOM - we're on the west coast so broadcast in PST. I encourage everyone to join us. -tch 4 1 1 Quote
GeorgeLuucas Posted October 23 Report Posted October 23 Thank you @Toryu2020! I do really need to attend those sessions. I read and save all the NCJSC newsletters and kantei emails, and also have Markus Seskos koto kantei book and supplement. The tricky part is getting all that knowledge and information to stick . I’m sure the zoom meeting would help a lot. Thanks again and hopefully see you soon on the zoom kantei, -Sam 1 Quote
Hoshi Posted October 24 Report Posted October 24 Lovely post @Benjamin. You're asking the right questions. It's worth reflecting deeply on this topic. 1 - What is the "theme" of your collection ? (expl : gokaden ? That one smith ? That era ? Horimono-maniac ? etc..) Meito, or famous swords, artifacts with a story to tell. 2 - What is the "aim" of your collection ? (expl : one of each type ? The one sword ? As much as possible ? etc...) To tell a story in seven chapters centered on seven artefacts. The focus is not solely on the object itself, but its cultural and historical context as the soul of the warrior, as an ancient store of value, and as an object of great ritualistic and symbolic significance through a changing society, from the times of emperor Gotoba to the tragedies of WW2. Every artifact should be a time capsule that stirs imagination on its own. Together they should tell a greater story. I think of it as pieces of a puzzle that fit together to reveal the awe-inspiring beauty of one of humanity's greatest artifact. 3 - What is the "border" of your collection ? (expl : only papered ? Not less than Jumyo ? Only tanto ? Always koshirae ? etc...) The border of what constitutes a Meito are blurry on the edges and I am still learning. Quality is necessary but not sufficient, provenance and other types historical context, scholarly value as reference pieces... In due time, each paired with a representative koshirae from the Edo period, by past or present owner, that tells a parallel story on the style of wear across different periods, geographic regions, and social contexts. While there is nothing wrong with unpapered or so-called secret blades that are confirmed privately by expert opinion, I am not a fan of this practice. I feel strongly in favor of creating exhaustive, reliable and openly accessible catalogue raisonné (Zufu volumes, Sayagaki & their registries, reliable publications...) as a critical step to promote, preserve, and highlight this artform to the world and for future generations. 4 - What is your "behaviour" in collecting ? (expl : buying - learning - selling ? Making a museum-room at home ? Stocking until not knowing where to put them ? etc...) All of the above, pursued with patience. Collecting to me is like growing a Bonzai garden. It's a long term pursuit, with a lot of pruning, research, and long periods of waiting. There are failures and successes. I do enjoy and undertake Kantei sessions, oshigata drawings, research seminars, data-driven and qualitative analysis, with the aspiration of being to contribute in some way or form to the scholarship and recognition of the art in a decade or so, once I have more time on my hands. Learning for now. 5 - What is your "purpose" in collecting ? (expl : knowledge ? Community membership ? Investment ? Pure appreciation ? etc...) All of the above, these all go together and feed virtuously into each other. From community comes better knowledge, Better knowledge improves our perception, and thus our ability to appreciate, From our ability to appreciate better comes better judgement, And better judgement leads us to make better investments, Better investment open opportunities to share and elevate the knowledge of our community, ...and the cycle repeats itself. That is at least the theory. There are so many failure modes in this loop. At the end though, its friendships and memories. 6 - At what stade are you ? (expl : starting ? Achieved or nearly achieved ? evolving ? etc...) Evolving, slowly. ETA: a few more decades. 6 2 1 Quote
waljamada Posted October 24 Report Posted October 24 1 - What is the "theme" of your collection ? (expl : gokaden ? That one smith ? That era ? Horimono-maniac ? etc..) I aim for a theme of a little nihonto trip/gallery through time and traits up to the end of WW2. A gallery of blades (my oldest is still only from the 1400's) and the art not only of a forging of blades but aspects of bohi/sohi/bonji/horimono/naginata-hi/o-kissaki/tachi (really want a kogarasu maru) etc...I dont have a certain smith (closest thing i had towards wanting a specific smith was Miyamoto Kanenori), smith line or school I am fully drawn to (if i had to pick a school it might be Tegai). So I'm good with any schools across the board. I for sure paint with very broad strokes in my collection because if I felt I needed examples of all hada and hamon types etc...I'd die poor and alone in a house made of swords. 2 - What is the "aim" of your collection ? (expl : one of each type ? The one sword ? As much as possible ? etc...) I do believe I aim for something more akin to the spirit of "one of each kind". I feel satisfied if I have a single example within a category of nihonto that I want represented in my collection. So the aim is to piece together my collection to display the greatest experience of that "time and traits" theme of Nihonto I possibly can within the means I am willing to invest. 3 - What is the "border" of your collection ? (expl : only papered ? Not less than Jumyo ? Only tanto ? Always koshirae ? etc...) Always prefer papered but not necessary depending on the blade... so no hard paper rule/border. Do want katana length (but can be fine with a 23" nagasa...22" would be the shortest I'd want). Prefer shirasaya but there really is nothing like having a blade in a great koshirae and wouldn't want a collection of all blades in only shirasaya. Don't want to buy project blades; so could be said good/great condition is a hard border of mine...but would 100% take a gamble on one that seemed very special. Only have one Toku Hozon blade and I'm satisfied with that as the prices tend to surpass my comfort zone per item (but if one finds me in my ranges then great). I doubt I will ever own a Juyo blade. I also have a self imposed border of only wanting to have up to 14 swords in my entire collection. Anymore would be too much for me time wise, space wise, responsibility wise and everything in between. 4 - What is your "behaviour" in collecting ? (expl : buying - learning - selling ? Making a museum-room at home ? Stocking until not knowing where to put them ? etc...) My behavior so far was to get to 14 blades and then "refine". I needed to see, study and really take in some blades when I was starting out. I didn't know anyone with any nihonto so I could only see what I purchased myself. Then I sell/sold the ones that didn't/don't end up exciting me to own over time. Now I stick to the "if I buy one I sell one" rule which will always force me to continue refining/upgrading.... however if over time I discover I really need 16 blades to fulfill my personal desired "nihonto trip through time and traits" gallery then that's how many it shall be. But I'll stick to the rule of 14 for many years to come. 5 - What is your "purpose" in collecting ? (expl : knowledge ? Community membership ? Investment ? Pure appreciation ? etc...) My purpose is to admire and caretake a small corner of nihonto while using it as a base of learning and reflection of what I learn to appreciate that I can hold in my hands. My purpose I guess is accumulate evidence of my nihonto journey while studying the things/pieces closest to me then branching off from there to see where that leads...then keep going...and going... while always returning to reflect what I've learned on my own collection.. I intend to keep going at a sauntering pace with occasional bursts probably my whole life (42 currently). So it's a purpose loop of: collection inspires study, study hones collection...round and around....I also really enjoy sharing about nihonto when the opportunity arises so the purpose/aim of the nihonto "time and traits" tour is a way I love to share it. I do try and spread those nihonto seeds where possible! Financially I don't look at it as a full fledged investment (which I know it can be) but at minimum I don't want to (and actively try to avoid) ever having to sell blades for less than I paid. So far I've made relatively small amounts on every blade I've sold and aim for that trend to continue and ideally increase over time if I chose blades wisely. 6 - At what stage are you ? (expl : starting ? Achieved or nearly achieved ? evolving ? etc...) I'd say out of 11 stages to nihonto mastery I'm at stage 2.3 tops. Know a small bit now, seen a good small bit, know a good bit of the lay of the land, know the optimal routes to take but only got through the easy fun starting bits of the journey....the route ahead is long and trying...requires diligence, sustained curiosity, more focus on details, purposeful/active study...but the path will have intriguing vistas along the way. I also think a guide who becomes a friend, or just friends on the journey together makes it all the better. I can admit though that I will never be a master at kantei or anything like that. I will probably be (and to a certain extent already can) able to tell good stories/lessons about certain smiths, schools, forging techniques, historical aspects etc...but I know myself and my priorities. For an example, I can still speak Japanese conversationally (even though its rough) but I really can't read much more than hiragana, katakana and probably only around 100 kanji tops after so many years of forgetting. I know I personally would rather master the Japanese language than Nihonto. Plus I have probably too many hobbies/interests. I'll probably cap out in nihonto as an decently nihonto educated enthusiast. A lively Nihonto uncle that would be great fun to get tipsy with and wax poetic on Nihonto. 2 1 Quote
Benjamin Posted October 24 Author Report Posted October 24 17 hours ago, GeorgeLuucas said: The soul of my collection is the Katana I inherited from my grandfather. Early shinto late Kanemoto school, in full koshirae. It's not high quality or in great condition, but it's very special to me. Let me bow to it Is it the one you hold in hand in your profile picture ? 13 hours ago, Franco D said: And as far as that goes, kantei is and should be the collector's guide to collecting nihonto. THAT is a word ! 9 hours ago, Hoshi said: To tell a story in seven chapters centered on seven artefacts. Very interesting and promising project ! I'd love to ear this story and see such a collection. 7 hours ago, waljamada said: really want a kogarasu maru I think you already saw this modern time one but in case... https://www.samurais....jp/sword/24157.html Quote
Jussi Ekholm Posted October 24 Report Posted October 24 1. Theme - I will keep my dream theme a secret for now as unfortunately I do not yet own an item that would be of that theme. My next purchase should be of that theme, when that will be I cannot yet say... After 20+ years of collecting I own only 3 swords and each of them are supportive of that theme I have in mind. 2. Aim - It would of course be amazing to have vast collecting of various items of that dream theme. However given the time it takes for me to get an item it won't be happening. Realistic aim would be just getting items that I enjoy. 3. Border - No borders. Only requirement for me would be that I like the item. 4. Behaviour - Just watching while doing my research. I admit this is the most tedious part for me as it would be fun to actually buy something. I keep scouting the items every week and I will try my best resist the urge to do sword dealing or trying flipping items for profit, as I don't want to go down that road. 5. Purpose - Research. I am very happy I enjoy research as I cannot collect at the level or in the style I would like. I feel my purpose is just doing my research and I am enjoying doing that. 6. Stage - Evolving, I've had various ideas for collecting before and they've been evolving into my current vision. 6 2 2 Quote
Benjamin Posted October 24 Author Report Posted October 24 1 hour ago, Jussi Ekholm said: I will keep my dream theme a secret for now Let me guess : okissaki / odachi / great tachi / nanbokucho ? 1 hour ago, Jussi Ekholm said: Research. I am very happy I enjoy research as I cannot collect at the level or in the style I would like. Your level of knowledge always put me in great esteem Jussi, and it meet your level of "savoir-être" (don't know if there is an equivalent in english : well being ?) 1 Quote
GeorgeLuucas Posted October 24 Report Posted October 24 5 hours ago, Benjamin said: Is it the one you hold in hand in your profile picture ? That's the one! And that's me at my wedding, showing it to my uncle, who had previously thought the sword was lost. It is gratifying to keep it in the family, and I intend to pass it down. Hopefully it sparks an interest in Nihonto for the next generation, like it did for me. I am enjoying reading everyone's answers! Cheers, -Sam 1 2 1 Quote
The Blacksmith Posted October 24 Report Posted October 24 Very good question Benjamin, For myself, though it was far too many years ago when I collected Japanese antiques, there were certan things that motivated me........ I had collected edged weapons since I was a very small boy, and was always captivated by all things Japanese, especially the swords, which even though I knew very little about them at first, I knew that they were special. When I eventually started collecting them, they were really an adjunct to my general collection of swords, knives and bayonets, but the bug quickly consumed me! Probably possessed is a better word that consumed!. I quickly became obsessed with all things Japanese and sold my other collections to concentrate of Japan. Though I had several old swords and blades, my main focus was on swords from World War II. of which I had about thirty or so. The thought that a sword, possibly a treasured ancestral blade, still had a place in modern warfare fascinated me, and this was where I devoted most of my efforts to collecting. Of the World War II swords with older blades I had, a nice Osafune Sukesada, a Harima no Daijo Shigetaka, and an o suriage nambokucho tachi , with kiri komi. The thought that these ancient swords were still reverred and thought important on a modern battlefield was fascinating. I was already fascinated by Japanese tradition, culture and history, so learning about the swords and armour was immensely interesting. I was fortunate to know Ron Gregory, Basil Robinson, though only through frequent correspondence undfortunately. Ron I would always send oshigata whenever I acquired a new sword. Fortunately, however,I got to know the late Victor Harris at the british Museum quite well, and John Anderson, whose collection of Japanese armour had to be seen to be believed! So with their help and guidence, study and appreciation of the subject came quite naturally. Regretably, kno longer have that collection, but tmy interest in all things Japanese has never been far away, and hopefully, a sword or two, or three.... will before long once again be in my collection. Apologies for any spelling mistakes, but I have problems with my eyesight at present and cannot read or writ properly! Russ 5 1 1 Quote
Benjamin Posted October 24 Author Report Posted October 24 4 hours ago, The Blacksmith said: The thought that these ancient swords were still reverred and thought important on a modern battlefield was fascinating. Indeed, but time flows... I was thinking that in only 15 years in the future, WW2 swords and koshirae will have 100 years old, and be class as antique ! Thank you for your effort and stay in good health as long as possible Russ. 1 Quote
The Blacksmith Posted October 25 Report Posted October 25 Thank you Benjamin, I'll try and do that! Something else that occurred to me was that with WWII swords, I wasn't woried about handling them, carefully of course! Some of the prettier swords with for example Goto fittings with gold, shakudo, shibuichi etc, actually scared me to pick them up and look at them, The WWII weapons were a little more robust and more of a pleasure, for me at anyrate, to handle, examne and care for. Interesting that as you say, very soon they will also be classed as antiques! 1 Quote
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