Contemporary tsuba...can they be valid?

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

I can't see how you can do such a thing like the one you suggest while moving on horseback

 

 

 

1 - Learn to ride horse.

 

2- Don't speculate about what you are not aware.

[Henry Wilson]

All this intellectual commentary and use of large words is making me:

 

i. Jealous as I don't have anything to add as it seems to be out of my league.

ii. Nervous as there is probably going to be a mud-slinging match to end it all.

iii. Bored as I have yet to actually read past the first paragraph of any ones post.

 

Sorry, but what the hell are you all talking about????

[Ford Hallam]

I could try to clarify...but as you won't read past the first paragraph I doubt it'll help

 

 

All the big words are just shorthand code words for even more paragraphs....count your blessing :D

[george trotter]

Considering the words of the title question: "contemporary tsuba...can they be valid", here is some cold logic...It could be argued that since 1954, by official government proclamation, and with the full support of the "sword world", there have been no "swords" made in Japan, only works of art that look like swords...ergo, the adornments on these art works are adornments on art works. Since the object is now art not function it could be argued that it is no longer valid to call the round object with a slot in the middle a "tsuba", just as it is not valid to call the art object in the shape of a sword "a sword"....but we still do.

 

Your round object with a slot in the middle Ford, is absolutely superb.

Regards,

George Trotter.

[Mark Green]

 

Great one George!

 

Horseback? Not so sure you want to stab much from horseback with a sword. Maybe if your standing still.

Use a yari if you want to stab. Slash with your nice sword. Much less chance, your sword gets caught, or broken. Not to mention, your arm getting ripped off.

 

I know people that do this a lot, and I have done it some. Even at medium speeds, the shock on your arm, and shoulder is not a good thing. There is a whole lot of kenitic energy involved in doing anything from the back of a horse!

 

It is great fun though!

 

But I would still like a big iron tsubs to protect my hand. :D

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Use a yari if you want to stab. ...omissis...Even at medium speeds, the shock on your arm, and shoulder is not a good thing. There is a whole lot of kinetic energy involved in doing anything from the back of a horse!

 

I get your point but...

As a re-enactor you should know that Yari used from horseback were a late introduction in Japanese fighting.

Sword was the secondary weapon for the bow from the very beginning.

Possibly japaneses for centuries never stabbed from horseback ?

Remember that the main target for an horsemen against an armored opponent (both by foot or mounted)

is the face, namely the eyes and mouth if facial armor is involved.

This is a detail I'm sure you can't reproduce in SCA figthing.

 

Stability on saddle ? indeed.

 

Is using also the left hand to push the Tsuka (protruding from a side of the horse while stabbing and moving)

any better, in therm of stability ?

 

The missing page of the article about Combat-Damaged-Tsuba :

 

[John A Stuart]

This article goes to the use of the point of the sabre by cavalry. It may help describe its use better than fantasy scenarios. John

 

http://www.pattonhq.com/sword.html

[Baka Gaijin]

Evening all,

 

Interesting thread, don't forget:-

 

 

Sums it all up

 

Happy New Year NMB

 

Cheers

 

Malcolm

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Sums it all up Malcolm

 

Hehehe... Ya know, without any desire to open any polemic, I must say that Youtube movies should be posted only by experimented movie makers. :D

 

Happy new year to you too, Malcom.

[David Price]

Just to "throw fuel on the fire" from a different direction....

 

Can/should Ford's work (or Patrick Hastings') be called "Tsuba" or "tsuba like object"? To many, if a sword is not made in Japan, from Japanese made tamahagani, by a Japanese smith, then it is not a "Katana" but a "katana like object". I think that to many the work of Rick Berrett, Anthony DiCristofano, Walter Sorrells and others, while they may be very well made, are "katana like objects". In this light, if the swords by the above mentioned smiths cannot be called "Katana" then why/how can Ford's work can be called "Tsuba".

 

By the way, I think that Rick Berrett, Anthony DiCristofano, Walter Sorrells forge wonderful "Katana" and that Ford Hallam and Patrick Hastings (and others) make outstanding "Tsuba".

 

Dave P

[David Price]

Perhaps an analogy would help: Edo kinko = McDonald’s burger, fries(chips), and a coke; Momoyama fine iron = five-star sushi.

 

Maybe some would think that this is a better analogy: "Edo kinko = Fine sushi and saki served by an excellent restaurant; Momoyama fine iron = A chunk of freshly caught fish and water from the same stream.

 

But then again, who am I to say.

 

Dave P

[Mark Green]

Yes Patton designed a great Rapier. And a puncture wound is much better than a slashing wound for sure. But just as the Rapier was a great Cav weapon mostly due to it's great reach out and touch you length. It takes great skill to thrust this, or any swords like weapon. And, even with the chisel point, if your thrust goes to far in, it may be very bad for your arm, and sword. I have seen and held the Patton sword. I was not that impressed.

 

I can chop the heck out of watermelons, and even good size pumkings, with a slash from a meduim speed horse, with a good saber, or Rapier. I have done both, many times. I have good friends that are as skilled at this, as anyone alive today. There is nothing fantasy about it.

And, you can do nice pokes on them if you do the angle right. But, in a straight on thrust, if you are not very, very, practiced at this, it can hurt. And in a real fight. No matter what your skills are, vs. a Man & horse. You may end up on the point of a sword just as easy as your enemy.

 

I have stabbed grain bags at standing man level. However, the few times I tried stabbing the pumkin we were using for a head. I bent the crap out of my nice rapier, and nearly ripped my arm off. I can imagine what a man in armor may have done if I ran my sword 8-10 in to deep.

That is a very hard thing to control.

Did the warriors of the day practice this all the time. For sure they did. But when two 1000lb moving loads bump. I'm sure you can get the picture, even if you have never been on a horse

 

Carlo, Yes I know that. I was just making a 'point'

I am a spear fighter. That is all I do at war. The yari is the Queen of the battlefield. And opponents faces are the prime target. In a real battle, if you get stabbed in the eye, or through the cheek, or just cut bad over your eyes anywhere, you are likely done for the day.

 

But, if your nice battle tsuba blocked that yari from taking your eye out, you could go on fighting.

Mark

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hello,

 

Can/should Ford's work (or Patrick Hastings') be called "Tsuba" or "tsuba like object"? .......... if the swords by the above mentioned smiths cannot be called "Katana" then why/how can Ford's work can be called "Tsuba".

 

hmm, for an answer it is necessary to look toward the Japanese for guidance and answers. Why, because, like or not, agree with it or not, that is where the recognized expertise comes from, and until that changes, what comes out of Japan lays the foundation work for sanctioning and recognizing legitimate nihonto artisans. The moment we choose to participate in the world of nihonto, in a sense we are agreeing to the rules. We can still choose not to play by nihonto rules, but then we must stop pretending to be a part of it only when it is to our choosing.

 

Ford's tsuba have been awarded full recognition in the NBTHK tsuba making contests, a sanctioned event. Which makes Ford a legitimate tsuba maker.

 

Surely, no one is suggesting that Brian Tschernega's habaki, that twice have been judged to 1st place in the NBTHK habaki making contests are something less because of ...... , what?

 

For these other artisans, if they're truly interested in being recognized in their field, they too will submit their work for the experts to judge. Until that time, which might never come, they remain what they are, no less, no more, which is just fine.

 

On the topic of:

 

Function of the Tsuba.

 

The primary function of the Japanese

sword tsuba is to prevent the sword user's

hand from sliding onto the drawn blade.

 

I would point out to my good friend, Dr. Leung, that although the primary "design function" of the tsuba is to prevent the user's hand from sliding forward, at the moment the tsuba is preventing an opponents sword from slicing off the sword user's fingers or hand, the "primary function" of the tsuba has significantly changed!

[Mark Green]

That!! is the best point so far Franco

[Steve Waszak]

Sorry, Franco, but I can't agree. Your argument here implies that if the NBTHK, or some other Japanese sanctioning body, did not recognize Ford's work as legitimate, that would be, as you say, "case closed." Well, it would not be closed, actually. Ford's work is Ford's work. It is brilliantly executed and realized, whether or not the NBTHK recognizes it as such, or as "legitimate." My argument in this thread has been mostly, if not entirely, about CULTURAL CONTEXT, and the effect this has on an object's "MEANING." The phrases "tsuba-like object" or "katana-like object" speak to this point. For me, with blades and fittings both being as anachronistic as they are, their meaning---and "identity"---changes. Contemporary blades and tsuba thus become more like homages to their earlier cousins, or if one prefers, "katana-like objects" and "tsuba-like objects." Incidentally, this holds true (for me) with contemporary Japanese smiths, too, not just non-Japanese. I happen to like the work of Naruki Issei quite a bit. He is a 20th-century "tsubako." Even though I like his work as I do, I don't consider what he makes to be "tsuba" in the same way that what Kaneiye made were tsuba. Why? Simply because the culture in which each was made changed so drastically. Some may see this as being rather, um, picky. That's fine. But I will maintain that context is huge, and absolutely cannot be set aside.

 

There is also a tinge of projected ethno-centrism in your assertions, Franco, that doesn't sit very comfortably. There is the suggestion that because one is Japanese, this automatically makes him more expert, more able, more qualified to determine validity, legitimacy, and quality as pertains to all matters concerning nihonto/tosogu. While I recognize that a deeply learned Japanese scholar---one who has had access to and understands intimately various texts and tomes that many non-Japanese would not---will have great advantages over his "average" Western counterparts when it then comes to assessing blades, tsuba, etc..., the simple FACT that he is Japanese does not mean that he will therefore hold a superior opinion to a non-Japanese. Let's acknowledge, too, that Japanese experts disagree with one another about things nihonto/tosogu all the time. So if one of these experts saw Ford's work as "legitimate," and another did not, which should we place our trust in? So I'm afraid it's not as simple as merely bowing down to "Japanese experts" to decide for us what is valid, legitimate, quality, etc...

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[Mark Green]

Geeze Steve, Did Franco really imply all that?

 

You are a pro., my man.

Cheers, Mark G

[nagamaki - Franco]

Sorry, Franco, but I can't agree. Your argument here implies that if the NBTHK, or some other Japanese sanctioning body, did not recognize Ford's work as legitimate, that would be, as you say, "case closed." Well, it would not be closed, actually. Ford's work is Ford's work.

 

Steve, first I suggest you re-read what I'm saying. Second, we can spout off all we want about Ford's work, positive or negative, but the problem is we are not experts, so we must turn to "established standards and measurements" to legitimize, otherwise what do we have?

 

It is brilliantly executed and realized, whether or not the NBTHK recognizes it as such, or as "legitimate."

 

Steve, like I said, you're free to agree or disagree with what the NBTHK or any other sanctioned nihonto authority says, all you want.

 

There is also a tinge of projected ethno-centrism in your assertions, Franco, that don't sit very comfortably. There is the suggestion that because one is Japanese, this automatically makes him more expert, more able, more qualified to determine validity, legitimacy, and quality as pertains to all matters concerning nihonto/tosogu.

 

Steve, I don't know where this is coming from, but nothing could be further from what I think, thus my reference to Mr. Tschernega, again, please read more carefully, thanks.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

...omissis...CULTURAL CONTEXT,...omissis...

There is also a tinge of projected ethno-centrism in your assertions, Franco, that don't sit very comfortably. There is the suggestion that because one is Japanese, this automatically makes him more expert, more able, more qualified to determine validity, legitimacy, and quality as pertains to all matters concerning nihonto/tosogu. While I recognize that a deeply learned Japanese scholar---one who has had access to and understands intimately various texts and tomes that many non-Japanese would not---will have great advantages over his "average" Western counterparts when it then comes to assessing blades, tsuba, etc..., the simple FACT that he is Japanese does not mean that he will therefore hold a superior opinion to a non-Japanese. Let's acknowledge, too, that Japanese experts disagree with one another about things nihonto/tosogu all the time. So if one of these experts saw Ford's word as "legitimate," and another did not, which should we place our trust in? So I'm afraid it's not as simple as merely bowing down to "Japanese experts" to decide for us what is valid, legitimate, quality, etc...

 

...mmm.. "tsuba-like-object"...reminds me a post in another board in which a nice XIX century Goto Ichijo Tsuba was no more considered a tsuba because of the design entered the Seppadai :

 

http://www.iidakoendo.com/info/item/b029.htm

 

Honestly, Steve I'm giving to Franco's words the meaning that, as we (westerners) weren't forced to enter competitions in traditional Japanese craftmanship but asked to be admitted to them, well it's natural we've to accept the rules of our hosting part. Exactly as you say it all about cultural context. We're entering *their* cultural context so we've to accept their judgment.

When Japan will be a multietnical nation as USA we'll possibly see a different situation. The fact that non-japaneses have been awarded of recognition in sword making and polishing, habaki making and tsuba making means that one day we'll possibly have also gaikokujin judges.

 

I think that there is more danger reversing the matter. If it was a western pool of judges to screen western and Japanese works, likely western judges would give more recognition to the Japanese works just because "it's made by a Japanese" even if of lesser quality then western ones...

[Steve Waszak]

Franco,

 

You say:

 

"Steve, first I suggest you re-read what I'm saying. Second, we can spout off all we want about Ford's work, positive or negative, but the problem is we are not experts, so we must turn to "established standards and measurements" to legitimize, otherwise what do we have?"

 

I have read what you're saying, and stand by my response entirely. In saying we are not experts, you assume that some other "sanctioning body" is comprised of such "experts." Tell me, how does one qualify as an "expert"? Who decides whether one is an expert or not? These "established standards and measurements" you speak of, precisely what are they? Who decided? What do we do when two or more "experts" disagree, maybe even strongly disagree with one another? How do WE decide, then, which expert is more persuasive, or who is "right"?

 

You say, too:

 

"Steve, like I said, you're free to agree or disagree with what the NBTHK or any other sanctioned nihonto authority says, all you want."

 

But what your post strongly implies is that we're not "free" to disagree with sanctioned experts, not unless we wish to have our opinion/views shot down. Don't you say that, "like it or not," we have to abide by what these experts have deemed worthy, valid, etc...? I don't see a lot of "freedom" of thought encouraged by such words...

 

 

There is also a tinge of projected ethno-centrism in your assertions, Franco, that doesn't sit very comfortably. There is the suggestion that because one is Japanese, this automatically makes him more expert, more able, more qualified to determine validity, legitimacy, and quality as pertains to all matters concerning nihonto/tosogu.

 

To this, you say:

 

"Steve, I don't know where this is coming from, but nothing could be further from what I think, thus my reference to Mr. Tschernega, again, please read more carefully, thanks."

 

There is a big difference between what Brian does in MAKING habaki and what the "sanctioned experts" do in JUDGING validity, legitimacy, excellence, and so on. While we may find a nice handful of skilled craftspersons making pieces in the Japanese tradition, how many non-Japanese members of shinsa teams do we find? How easy would it be for a non-Japanese to become a shinsa team member?

 

One of the classic ways in which hegemonic powers maintain their control in given contexts is by obfuscation, mystification, inscrutability. If the area of knowledge in question is presented as guarded, special, exceedingly esoteric, and reserved only for "those who belong," those on the outside will be forever looking in, kept at arm's length, and effectively excluded from the inner circle where power is actually wielded. Often, those on the outside simply accept this, question nothing, shrug and defer to the "expert and superior" inner circle. My point here is that we certainly may end up accepting and even embracing what the experts say, but we should do so not out of automatic default to the ineffably deeper knowledge of these experts, but because we have applied our own efforts at critically assessing the objects or questions at hand, and can articulate for ourselves what make a piece worthy, valid, legitimate, high-quality, and so on.

[Bazza]

one day we'll possibly have also gaikokujin judges.

Do we not already have one in Dr Gordon Robson???

 

Barry Thomas

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

how many non-Japanese members of shinsa teams do we find? How easy would it be for a non-Japanese to become a shinsa team member?

 

One of the classic ways in which hegemonic powers maintain their control in given contexts is by obfuscation, mystification, inscrutability. If the area of knowledge in question is presented as guarded, special, exceedingly esoteric, and reserved only for "those who belong," those on the outside will be forever looking in, kept at arm's length, and effectively excluded from the inner circle where power is actually wielded.

 

 

one day we'll possibly have also gaikokujin judges.

Do we not already have one in Dr Gordon Robson???

 

Barry Thomas

 

 

Perfect timing.

[Steve Waszak]

Ever hear of "the exception that proves the rule"?

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[Stephen]

Ever hear of "the exception that proves the rule"?

 

WOW didnt know ya had a one liner in ya Steve. :lol:

[Pete Klein]

Ford -- a very good friend allowed me this picture which I have reoriented into the position it would have been in to receive the cuts shown. This is off of a papered pre-Edo uchigatana koshirae and is a good example of a piece used by an actual Samurai in battle. The fact that it is Kinko might help to explain why we see the cuts as opposed to steel tsuba which would have been much more resistant to such lacerations.

 

[Bazza]

The fact that it is Kinko might help to explain why we see the cuts as opposed to steel tsuba which would have been much more resistant to such lacerations.

The daisho tsuba I mentioned earlier where the dai tsuba had a sword cut was of iron, and yes the cut was more of a "nick" than the heavy cut in the tsuba Pete showed us.

 

Pete - a question. The colour looks as if the tsuba is yamagane rather than shakudo - is this right??

 

Regards,

BaZZa.

[sanjuro]

Thanks Pete for at least reminding us of what a real tsuba looks like. Gee I'll bet the samurai who used that is pleased that it served its primary purpose as a hand guard to protect his fingers!

 

I wonder how some of the contemporary 'Tsuba like objects' would perform under the same conditions.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Tell me, how does one qualify as an "expert"? Who decides whether one is an expert or not?

Kantei is how experts are determined. People like Mr. Hagihara with tosogu (please correct and excuse if misspelled) and Mr. Tanobe with nihonto are able to demonstrate repeatedly their expertise in kantei, plus their immense knowledge of nihonto history, that's what makes them experts.

 

These "established standards and measurements" you speak of, precisely what are they? Who decided? What do we do when two or more "experts" disagree, maybe even strongly disagree with one another? How do WE decide, then, which expert is more persuasive, or who is "right"?

 

Steve, don't expect answers if you're going to rant and take an argumentative tone, simply go find you're own answers.

 

how many non-Japanese members of shinsa teams do we find? How easy would it be for a non-Japanese to become a shinsa team member?

 

We are talking about Japan and nihon-to here aren't we? Truthfully, I wouldn't expect to find any non Japanese on the shinsa teams, you see its their party, their culture, their history, they set the rules and standards and have every right to do so! Just like you wouldn't go to Venice and expect to find non Italian Gondoliers.

[pcfarrar]

We are talking about Japan and nihon-to here aren't we? Truthfully, I wouldn't expect to find any non Japanese on the shinsa teams, you see its their party, their culture, their history, they set the rules and standards and have every right to do so! Just like you wouldn't go to Venice and expect to find non Italian Gondoliers.

 

There are non-Japanese on at least one shinsa panel that I know of.

[sanjuro]

Bad analogy Franco.

 

Two years ago a television news story aired in Australia about an English girl working for over twelve months as a gondolier in Venice. It was genuine enough. The story was by the BBC.

[Ford Hallam]

Well it does seem I've stirred up the proverbial hornets nest ...no blood loss as yet

 

I find the example that Pete has offered quite convincing although we don't have any real way of knowing when that was done do we? But it would be churlish of me to deny the possibility that this example at least "looks" convincing.

 

I think what would really be needed is a series of mechanical tests, tightly controlled, where a long blade weighing about 900grams is allowed to drop against various samples of metal to determine exactly the sorts of cut, and depth, are produced. This would at least bare some resemblance to objective testing of the hypothesis.

 

Having said all that that fact that we may indeed find the odd tsuba that appears to exhibit battle damage does not disprove my original claim. That a tsuba may afford a certain degree of protection is reasonably self evident...what is being disputed my myself is that this is/was it's primary function. We can agree that almost all tsuba have a modicum of aesthetic appeal while only a tiny proportion appear to have had to serve the ostensible defensive function. It seems obvious then that the overwhelming "use" of the tsuba was to look good, the occasional tiff not withstanding.

 

I wonder how some of the contemporary 'Tsuba like objects' would perform under the same conditions.

 

Given that tsuba you're referring to seems to have a shakudo mimi and that it wasn't cut through I'd suggest that certainly every tsuba I've ever made would easily function as well...if not better. Any disc of metal with the toughness of copper will function well. In fact it may well be that such a copper disc may be superior in terms of this purely functional aspect than a well forged and tempered, pierced steel guard. In fact I'm pretty certain of it.

 

I'd also like to thank everyone for being so very gracious with regard to my own work, despite individual preferences. Thank you all very much indeed. I must admit to feeling quite uncomfortable though as my intention with this topic wasn't to debate the validity of my own endeavours but rather to explore what tsuba can/could mean in terms of aesthetic expression today...it was foolish of me to think I could raise this topic and not become, personally, part of it.

 

To be honest, as an artist, I do find terms like "homage" and "tsuba like object" to be quite dismissive....implying, as they do that the pieces are somehow not real in any meaningful way in relation to the sword. That they are merely pale imitations of the forceful objects of the past.

 

I believe I made my view clear in my initial post, that we cannot make tsuba in the same way they were made, or intended, as in pre-Edo Japan. What I was proposing was a new "function"...a reappraisal of tsuba as expressive canvas. As an artist this is what interests me and where I believe there is a valid semiotic ( to be Steve's terminology ) function.

 

By pointing out how the apparent use and function of the tsuba has never been static...and how it's defensive function (if that ever was it's amin function ) has diminished steadily from at least the start of the Edo period giving ever more prominence to simply looking good. :D I was trying to suggest that this aspect of aesthetic expression may legitimately be continued today, particularly in relation to contemporary swords.

 

This whole "debate" about the functionality of swords and tsuba is a complete no-brainer, in my opinion. Unless you take into account aesthetics (covers a multitude of sins) any long, tough, sharp bit of steel with a pointy end and a little disc just in front of the handle will meet the purely functional aspects of a sword. I'd suggest that many such rudimentary implements were carried as side arms on the battle fields on old Japan. To maintain that the time in which such an artefact is made in determines whether the label still applies is taking thing a bit far.

 

The Japanese Sword has a tremendously significant cultural and artistic role in Japan today, as always. That the emphasis has shifted more towards the esoteric( I mean the word in it's sense of highly specialised) and abstract qualities of the medium itself is a reflection of it's contemporary semiotic value. The tradition is evolving.

Functionality remains embedded

, "form follows function", but the art-form continues to explore the subtle qualities of metal. In this respect the finest works, of all periods, share a great deal in common.

 

I would argue that the symbolic role of the Japanese sword has always been it's most powerful presence, whether on the field of battle, on a katana-kake in a tokanoma in a private residence or on display in an International museum. The complexity of what it represents depends, as Steve rightly points out, to a great extent, on context. This context has always been in flux. To survive, all traditions must remain in flux and evolve to provide meaningful expression... one that is expressive of the times. I believe that is still happening as in the work of the finest swordsmiths at work today...and if I may be so bold as to count myself in their company, I like to believe my own work also speaks to a beauty that is much loved still and provides a vehicle to further develop new beauty within the context of this tradition. This is the crux of what I was getting at in terms of "legitimacy".

 

I think there is a whole new topic to wrangle over in relation to our evaluation of the qualities that these artefacts exhibit and the need for some sort of objectivity in assessing these aesthetics. I fully appreciate Steve's points regarding the ultimate impossibility of true objectivity but I would maintain that this is precisely where the study of aesthetics, [as a tool, not a dogma as some seem to fear, with which we can begin to more effectively analyse and study this art form], provides a framework for a more mature and balanced appreciation.

 

...and then, of course there's all that nonsense about menuki supposedly having a functional role in improving the grip

 

best regards to all...and wishing you all a most brilliant "year of the tiger"

 

Ford