Ayanokoji Sadatoshi with TH papers

[Gerry]

I wonder how much this will eventually go for; what looks to be an ubu Sadatoshi tachi with a 87.3cm nagasa.

 

https://www.jauce.com/auction/1157055481

 

[Lewis B]

The photos are from the Eirakudo website, as is the Jauce account. Its not listed on their website

[Jussi Ekholm]

It is very interesting item, thanks for posting it Gerry. Unfortunately I have no clue about the price it will reach but as it is Yahoo auction by Eirakudō I am pretty sure they pull it off and don't sell it through Yahoo JP.

 

One note about the sword, that is my speculation is that I believe the mei that it had was removed. At least it looks like that when looking at NBTHK paper. There is a Hon'ami sayagaki for Munechika (I think dated 1982 [Shōwa 57]) and I think it may have originally been signed Munechika. I would think the signature would have been thought to be gimei and it was possibly removed to achieve NBTHK papers. Now if this has happened like that I am very sad. I would rather have the tachi with gimei signature and no appraisal papers, than mei removed and with NBTHK attribution papers. Of course the second option is financially much more desirable but now the sword is forever altered.

[Gakusee]

1 hour ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

It is very interesting item, thanks for posting it Gerry. Unfortunately I have no clue about the price it will reach but as it is Yahoo auction by Eirakudō I am pretty sure they pull it off and don't sell it through Yahoo JP.

 

One note about the sword, that is my speculation is that I believe the mei that it had was removed. At least it looks like that when looking at NBTHK paper. There is a Hon'ami sayagaki for Munechika (I think dated 1982 [Shōwa 57]) and I think it may have originally been signed Munechika. I would think the signature would have been thought to be gimei and it was possibly removed to achieve NBTHK papers. Now if this has happened like that I am very sad. I would rather have the tachi with gimei signature and no appraisal papers, than mei removed and with NBTHK attribution papers. Of course the second option is financially much more desirable but now the sword is forever altered.

Yes Jussi - right up your alley: old, long, ubu tachi. Kimura san sometimes has OK prices so worthwhile a check. 
 

But come on - even you must acknowledge that a possibly fake Nisshu sayagaki to Sanjo Munechika or some other potentially lofty signature (attribution?) on the nakago is too far-fetched. 
 

The removal of the signature is old - predating Showa 28 as on the torokusho they show two empty squares, therefore clearly there had been characters on the nakago but illegible or merely remnants. 

[Lewis B]

8 minutes ago, Gakusee said:

Yes Jussi - right up your alley: old, long, ubu tachi. Kimura san sometimes has OK prices so worthwhile a check. 
 

But come on - even you must acknowledge that a possibly fake Nisshu sayagaki to Sanjo Munechika or some other potentially lofty signature (attribution?) on the nakago is too far-fetched. 

Yes, probably a very good reason its on Jauce and not the website. Too many question marks.

[Okan]

What happened is exactly as you described @Jussi Ekholm 

[Jussi Ekholm]

Good catch on the torokusho Michael I just looked at the one big picture. Maybe something in NBTHK photography has made the mei removal stand out a lot in the picture on the papers, as I thought it to be more recent. I do think the mei has been removed vs. worn down by age. I admit Hon'ami attributions are way above my level, and I cannot judge their authencity.

 

Still I think it should be a very good sword as NBTHK judged it as Ayanokōji Sadatoshi, so even big early names are something that might have been originally on the nakago. However I cannot figure out the differences on these high level smiths. I think personally the mei removal would drive me mad if I would somehow manage to end up with a sword like this. As it has been judged as very high level Yamashiro smith, I would think about the possible signatures that were on it.

 

Very interesting item none the less. Lots of speculating on my part but it is still part of the fun. I am happy I am not shopping for anything as I would be bit tempted with something like this, yet I don't understand the sword as much as I would want.

 

 

[Gerry]

2 hours ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

It is very interesting item, thanks for posting it Gerry. Unfortunately I have no clue about the price it will reach but as it is Yahoo auction by Eirakudō I am pretty sure they pull it off and don't sell it through Yahoo JP.

 

One note about the sword, that is my speculation is that I believe the mei that it had was removed. At least it looks like that when looking at NBTHK paper. There is a Hon'ami sayagaki for Munechika (I think dated 1982 [Shōwa 57]) and I think it may have originally been signed Munechika. I would think the signature would have been thought to be gimei and it was possibly removed to achieve NBTHK papers. Now if this has happened like that I am very sad. I would rather have the tachi with gimei signature and no appraisal papers, than mei removed and with NBTHK attribution papers. Of course the second option is financially much more desirable but now the sword is forever altered.

I'm not sure if it's just my middle aged eyesight...but the space where the bottom character used to reside kind of looks like a "mitsu" (光) to me, ,with the long curl of the lower right stroke standing out against the standard rust pattern.

2 hours ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

 

 

[Lexvdjagt]

3 hours ago, Lewis B said:

The photos are from the Eirakudo website, as is the Jauce account. Its not listed on their website

Eirakudo does this often, they tend to place the items on Jauce with a low starting price. Only to remove the listing because it does not reach the desired price. This listing will probably also get removed. I confirmed with them that this is their official account.

 

 

[Gerry]

1 hour ago, Lexvdjagt said:

Eirakudo does this often, they tend to place the items on Jauce with a low starting price. Only to remove the listing because it does not reach the desired price. This listing will probably also get removed. I confirmed with them that this is their official account.

 

 

I agree with you, and the majority of the Eirakudo items don't reach their reserve, and they cancel the bids at the end. I really don't know why they even bother listing their stuff on Yahoo Auctions.

[PNSSHOGUN]

There have been a number of swords from this seller with very questionable provenance added. The last was a sword supposedly owned by a Prince with Hakogaki and special Kyu Gunto Koshirae. To the trained eye it was clear this had been whipped up recently. 

[Schneeds]

Looks like the auction ended at 2,203,000.  I wonder why they didn't just have a new shirasaya made and sell it as is with NBTHK TH on their website. 

[Jussi Ekholm]

Seems like they added it to their website and asking price is 6,000,000 yen. https://eirakudo.shop/233657

 

I think for many the Hon'ami sayagaki (if genuine) might be much more important than NBTHK papers. I do have lots and lots of reference sayagaki by Nisshū. Unfortunately I am complete novice when it comes to Hon'ami sayagaki so I cannot judge their authencity.

 

To me this is an interesting item but for me the price makes this unobtainable. And the problem is that for that amount of money there would be so many other items I might seek if I would ever end up having that amount to spend for a sword.