Type 19 Project and Historical/Personal Context

[Aegon]

Hello, I'm new here and quite interested in Japanese history around the time period of Matthew Perry's voyage and the effects of it from the Japanese perspective. I picked up a Type 19 in the midst of this historical immersion and it truly is fascinating.

 

Some historical context--

Today's modern Japanese see globalization as an objective good as its all they ever have known; their great (xN) grandparents generation would disagree. It can be argued Japan became a different country upon signing the Convention of Kanagawa on 21-Feb-1855 under threat of overwhelming, overclassed force as Samurai could not match 10 ships loaded with top-of-the-line cannons and 1,600 troops armed with top-of-the line rifles and equipment. Imagine--you are Japan and have armies of expert swordsmen trained from youth and a futristic force designed around weaponized idolatrous alchemy appears wanting to "peacefully trade" then fires something that may look like sorcery--like the spell "Fireball"--claiming its a "celebration" when it was intimidation.  

 

The Convention of Kanagawa was an unfair treaty to cede right to sustain a rigorously morally righteous traditional culture that constituted US forced oath torment (religious torture of coercing an "oathbound" agreement or treaty) on the Japanese who may have had Stockholm syndrome (an effect where a hostage befriends their captor) as it was signed with guns to their heads and may be the first tangible factor leading to WWII where I have a building hypothesis Japan was Morally Justified resisting oath torment waging war against the Allies, including US, USSR, England, France), when I do not believe Germany or Italy ever imposed such a treaty. Japan was showered with gifts of goodwill and likely had a temporary euphoria of getting nice things and quickly signed a bunch of these.

* §8: Provisioning of American ships to be a Japanese government monopoly. Sounds like it forced Japan to expend tax dollars to support US occupation forces.

* §9: Japan to give the United States any favourable advantages which might be negotiated by Japan with any other foreign government in the future. Line basically made Japan a weak-form colony, declaring US as Japan's superior.

 

The Anglo-Japanese Friendship Treaty 4-Oct-1854 with England.

* §5: Most favored nation agreement for any future port openings; equal treatment with Dutch and Chinese.

 

Treaty of Shimoda 7-Feb-1855 with Russia.

* §9: Most favored nation status for Russia.

 

Treaty of Amity and Commerce between France and Japan on 9-Oct-1858.

* System of extraterritoriality that provided for the subjugation of foreign residents to the laws of their own consular courts instead of the Japanese law system. Undermined Japan's soverignty.

 

I can personally relate, as I have PTSD from being tortured with oath torment under Stockholm syndrome and see my own experience paralleled in Japanese history in this time period which caused me to reevaluate Japanese entry into WWII.

 

Stockholm syndrome is important in Japanese history. Around the time of these treaties, Japan resisted caving as long as they could, then may have had Stockholm syndrome euphoria when they gave in while showered with gifts leading to serial-signing of oath torment treaties, then a Stockholm syndrome honeymoon where Japan was convinced they made the right "choice," then violently rebelled against Stockholm syndrome evident in hyper-nationalistic types seizing the military and being aggressive, then WWII.

 

The oath torment of these treaties inspired Japan to go all-in on military perhaps to prevent Stockholm syndrome and oath torment and coersion again, and perhaps inspired joining Western powers in "colonization games" to "keep up with the Joneses" and portray themselves as an equal. Japan rapidly built up a 1.2M army using new Western tech effectively to fight and defeat Russia in 1905 and then 4.5M army in WWII with remarkable catchup speed. The rapid militarization implies Japan did NOT want to modernize and was shaken up from Perry and also wanted to protect other Asian countries from Stockholm syndrome and oath torment, in a draft of the Russo-Japanese war treaty.  Japan may have been ENRAGED it was forced to play "colonial games" with Europe/US at cost of traditional culture and aspired to hold its own.

 

With this said, I came up with some non-traditional hypotheses of Japanese casus belli in WWII where Japan may have even had Just War factors in WWII that flip conventionally believed alignments.

1. Western Europe, USSR, and US imposed oath torment under threat of attack with a futuristic force to force a rigorously morally righteous traditional culture to sell out and cede soverignty, recognize others as superiors, and undermine rule of local law.

2. Early Western Japanese leadership had Stockholm syndrome euphoria, quasi-bribery euphoria, and kept signing rigged treaty after rigged treaty first at gunpoint, then with euphoria of the release from resisting Stockholm syndrome.

3. Within decades of oath torment, a rigorously morally righteous traditional culture began to erode and anger the population.

4. Oath torment forced Western Japan--resisting globalization which may be a Biblical Babel Violation--to be involved in international conflict and imposed perpetual increased risk and accute risk of being forced to pick a favored "most favored nation" of the several.

5. Oath torment caused religious interference from introduction of Western religions that trended to atheism over time when in Japan, there may have been very few hardcore atheists fully denying the Divine.

6. (Plausible) knowledge of a US nuke program and desire to delay or terminate it, perhaps of uncertain status, and fear a nuke would make Japan too easy to defeat as it skips an invasion and requires 24/7 vigilence of even one plane. Note: US began Manhattan Project in Oct 1941 and Japan attacked Pearl Harbor in Dec 1941 when then US did Japanese internment camps, perhaps believing spies were present. This changes motives of Pearl Harbor to be of destroying a close base where a nuke could be stationed.

7. (Plausible) Fear that the US would become too powerful with nukes and use them to extort the world, kill too many, and usher in a WMD dystopia if it develops the atom bomb and uses it like it used Perry's fleet and flexes the atom bomb to provoke further oath torment.

 

Interesting right?

 

Phew, lots of historical hypotheses. Back to the sword.

 

I commiserate with this time period and wanted to make a Type 19 into a piece I named in my head "Forsworn" related to the act of rebellion against oppression of renouncing oath torment and Stockholm syndrome. My idea was to:

1) on the D guard, remove the Western-inspired components--the D guard handle and swirly decor--to make it more "Japanese" and look more like a traditional tsuba.

2) on the tsuka, I want to make a new one and try to remove the original rayskin on the Type 19 handle to put the real rayskin on the new tsuka. How could I remove the rayskin?

3) saya, I may leave as-is or make a new one.

 

Note: this Type 19 is lacking a backguard for the D-guard and the guard doesn't fit right without it, making some modification necessary to make it usable.

 

Any thoughts on this? Is this a novel and meaningful idea respectful to the piece and its place in history or mutilation of a historical artifact? Most seek to preserve at the micro-level and this is a macro-level preservation capturing something I didn't realize until suffering oath torment under Stockholm syndrome myself, which the Type 19's first owner may have felt wielding it in battle.

 

Also, there is a bit of gunk or oxide layer on it. How may this be removed? Microfiber and powder mallet?

 

Thanks

[lonely panet]

what  gibberish are on about

[Toryu2020]

Not sure what you want to create from your D-guard. I would leave it as is and save your money for something period appropriate but is it Perry's time you're interested in or WWII?

[PNSSHOGUN]

Moving quickly past the start of the post, the idea of radically altering your D-Guard is dubious at best, and generally such damn fool projects gain no traction here. We are actively attempting to PRESERVE Japanese military swords, not encourage every nut to attack them with bandsaws, mallets, and sandpaper when the mood strikes them. 

 

 

[Aegon]

I was wanting to get into metalworking as a hobby and remove the "stem" of the D-guard and maybe recycle the metal into a kurigata. Not sure how hard this is.

 

I was picturing retaining as much shape of the original and trying to make it flat(ter) into more of a typical shaped tsuba. I have to think of something as the piece was missing the back of the D guard so it has a wobbliness to it and may look odd if I make a tsuka to fit the integrated fuchi and have the D guard floating next to it when it has a notch to fit the backguard (missing).

 

At least my mental image, it has potential to look really neat and still period and a bit aged from salvaging the original rayskin and would have the character of rebelling against the Westernization of the guntō in trying to make it less wobbly missing a part.

 

These are I think hard to come by where I am and wanted to make do with what I was able to get. I'm a quality over quantity type.

[ChrisW]

This is a site for the preservation of Japanese swords, regardless of their era. You won't get any traction or support for your idea as is.

If you want to create such a thing, honor the history by making it from new parts and new materials, using their techniques. Not by mutilating a surviving veteran. This would be the proper way to realize your idea.


Regardless of your theories regarding cultural Stockholm Syndrome, it is well documented that such things as the Kyu Gunto were in fashion at the time of their creation. (As well as being seen as a way to catch up technologically with the rest of the world.) Much like things such as the creation of cloisonne fittings or Namban tsuba. Culture is an artistic expression and extension of what people find to be worthy of sharing, and as such, culture is shared and blended when it comes into contact with other cultures. People like and dislike things, but that is getting into the philosophical field of aesthetics, and one can easily spend years talking about that.

 

As said, if you want to create such a thing, leave the antiques alone. They are venerable survivors of a past era. Make it from new material!

[Aegon]

Thanks. I think that may be better as I had a hesitance of wrecking the original D-Guard front--I don't have the back part and need to plan something to be able to use it for iaido to address the wobbling with about 1/4 to 1/2 inch missing in the fuchi. And a few questions.

 

1. I know not to touch the nakago, yet the spot under the habaki has a bit of what looks like active rust, or at least, rust that looks different than nakago rust. Should that get cleaned off? Is the are under the habaki supposed to be clean?

 

2. The blade has a lot of staining with a few windows that someone else had opened up. I have been using uchiko on this and have gotten minimal result though I understand this may take a long time and I have patience. I have tried 91% iso and it too, didn't do much. I have also read 0000 steel wool may be good, any thoughts on that or any other methods that may get results? Should I start at the window and work my way up as it cleans or does it matter?

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Why not give it a gentle touch wtth a belt sander and see how that works !. Seriously though post some  photos so people can see what you are talking about .

[robinalexander]

Sorry, wrong Forum Aegon ... blacksmithing might be more in line with your ambitions?

[Emil]

I appreciate your passion for history and your connection to the Type 19 sword, but I wanted to offer some perspective.

 

It can be interesting to draw parallels between personal experiences and historical events, but some of your ideas, like Japan’s actions in WWII being a response to "oath torment" and "Stockholm syndrome," aren't supported by mainstream history. Treaties like the Convention of Kanagawa were unequal, but Japan’s actions were influenced by many complex factors beyond simple coercion.

 

Be careful about projecting psychological concepts (like Stockholm syndrome) onto historical actors and situations where they may not fit. Nations and cultures act in complex ways that can’t be easily likened to individual experiences of trauma. History should be viewed with a broad lens that accounts for the complexities of the time.

 

As for your sword, I’d advise against altering it, especially on the basis of unverified historical hypothesises, that you are likely to find not holding true in the future. Historical artifacts, like swords, carry important cultural significance, and modifying them erases part of that history.

 

Maybe get a sword box 刀桐箱 which can be decorated with hakogaki 箱書き to express your beliefs

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

I, too, would like to see photos of the sword, missing part area, and blade.  

 

I have a few blades with black spots/stains and haven't found anything that removes it.  They seem permanently ingrained into the steel.  Short of a professional polish, I don't know what else would work.  So, I just preserve them.

[Aegon]

Bruce, I and perhaps far more appreciate your efforts. If it weren't for those interested in nihonto, there would be far fewer than there are and less interest than there is as the nihonto wouldn't have the sharp features that only really show in good polish and upkeep. These need good stewards and I aspire to be a good steward myself.

 

Especially the kyu-guntō and shin-guntō types which I understand aren't "collectable" or have "high value," yet value is in the eye of the beholder and believe I came across what makes a really neat daisho set. Personally, I find it "unfair" to the WWII smiths who were trained perhaps from smiths active right around Perry (for instance a 60 y/o in WWII born 1880 trained from a 60 y/o smith born 1830 who saw perhaps the most rapid change a nation has seen) who poured their heart and soul into making shin-guntōs under what could be oppressive conditions at times; they are the ones responsible for keeping this awesome tradition alive. These smiths also trained in a time period where social pressures may have pushed them away from mastering a traditional craft and they may have gotten mockery even like "why are you wasting your time learning to make those, they aren't used anymore?" yet perservered. Yeah, they may be "non-traditional" yet full traditional smithing is not possible given the need at the times are a part of history and without "non-traditional" construction for a time, Japanese sword making could have been lost.  I'll support them. I find it fascinating thinking of ages of people and ages of their mentors in history.

 

What started my kick is that I was reading about historical context then came across both a Kyu-Guntō and what I was told was an NCO model Shin-Guntō and was captivated from the set of the two as I was spending a lot of time reading about this period. I see how the two pieces capture some of the changes from Perry to WWII and tell the story of Japan Westernizing while trying to stay true to its roots (rayskin handle, fuchi with lock, habaki, blade shape, saya style) while incorporating some Western asthetics (D-Guard, shiny saya, certain ornamental flavors) and then becoming nationalistic on the lead-up to WWII and returning to its roots, as I read that Japanese soldiers demanded return to traditional shaped katanas as the D-Guard models underperformed. Makes a good daisho IMHO which too is like a mini museam.

[Bruce Pennington]

We have come at the same issues from opposite directions! I had a sword from my dad, and the more I learned the more I got hooked on the history. And it looks like you came from the other direction, hooked on the history, and found some cool swords!

 

 I think most of us have really been blessed by our collecting by the fact that it has exposed us to so much history and the human endeavors of all kinds. 
 

I don’t want to distract you from our need for addictive views of your sword, but I do appreciate your angle on early Japanese history leading up to World War II. There are a number of factors that led to what happened as we all know. But your angle is an interesting addition.

[Aegon]

My goal here is to rescue a dirty/stained blade for iaido and maybe even tameshigiri, not to display pieces, and make the best of what I have and give it TLC rather than hunting for more. I agree, its best not to touch the original D-guard and handle so it could be swapped.

 

Its tricky as this piece is not the standard shape, making it hard to find fittings online and then again, mass produced parts don't belong on a nihonto IMHO and self-made fittings fit the spirit, even if I'm a newbie. I'd rather make fittings myself than play spot the fake games online.

 

I'm not sure if you guys do handlework here and its the wrong place, yet are there any recommendations for same-kawa and tsuka-ito sources? I'm actually quite excited for this project as I found a plank of cedar wood left over from making my house that could make a tsuka and saya.

 

How did Samurai select menuki? Something special or meaningful to them or just what the smith added?

[Emil]

@Aegon I understand where you're coming from because I used to have the same idea when I was new to world of Japanese swords. The thrill of testing a sword’s sharpness and putting it to use can be very tempting when you don't fully understand this art.

 

However, the more I studied and learnt, I realized that using old swords isn’t okay, unless you're living in Japan and have no other choice.

 

These swords, crafted by skilled hands in a different time, were passed down through generations, surviving wars, conflicts, and history itself because of the careful and responsible owners that cared for them.

 

When we use an old or antique sword, we unintentionally serve our own desires at the expense of the sword’s lifespan. Each time a blade is sharpened or struck against a target, we diminish its original integrity. In a way, the sword ends up serving our ego, rather than us being humble stewards of its history.

 

By taking care of these swords, rather than using them, we honor the people who crafted and preserved them before us. Their care is the reason we can enjoy these pieces today. I’ve come to appreciate that my role is not be the final destination of the the swords I aquire, but to preserve them so that future generations can experience their beauty and craftsmanship just as we do now.

 

It's not just about ownership, but stewardship and there's something deeply rewarding in that perspective

 

Frankly speaking, with the abundance of affordable reproduction swords available for iaido and tameshigiri it would be plain careless to use anything historical for that purpose. And I wouldn't be proud to tell anyone of it, as it would only highlight my ignorance

 

On another note, I wish you the best of luck with that tsuka and saya project of yours 👍

[b.hennick]

I'm not sure that cedar is the right kind of wood to make a saya or tsuka 

[Emil]

5 hours ago, b.hennick said:

I'm not sure that cedar is the right kind of wood to make a saya or tsuka 

 

Barry is right about this unfortunately.

 

Cedar contains natural oils and resins that may contribute to oxidation over time. These oils could cause slight reactions with high carbon steel blades, particularly if the wood isn’t cured properly. Moreover, it's softer than ideal. While easy to carve, it will dent easily.

 

Look for Japanese magnolia wood (honoki). This wood is soft enough to carve but still durable and free of oils that might promote oxidation. It is also resin free, which helps protect the blade from moisture and rust.

 

Ideally the wood has been seasoned for a few years (traditionally 5-10 years) for dimensional stability and dryness. 

 

 

 

 

[Aegon]

@Emil I see where you are coming from and agree. I have seen so many posts where people pick up WWII era pieces--ranging from the most rushed machine made to True nihonto--and have the attitude that they are beaters because they are rather "common," "not old enough," not as expensive or desired as "collector/museam-grade," or don't have famous smiths. There will come a time when the numbers of these dwindle as they age appropriately and they do become sought-after pieces with historical context.

 

I picture this as like a stock chart where the stock chart of nihonto was traditionally high with smiths in high demand and status and then plummeted around Perry's expedition where post-Perry smiths had to have a special dedication and drive, accepting the diminished status and not letting it get to them, to keep the tradition alive amid the tanking of the chart. Maybe someday the chart will take off again if people ever realize gunpowder was not the way and merely increased the brutality and death toll needed to decide the result of a war and then this era would have that special feature of being the lull or depression of the historical flow of things that without it, there would be no future of nihonto. My 2 cents.