Kaneyoshi Okada Showato

[Emil]

I was browsing the swords at Nosyudo when I stumbled onto this Showato labelled as "Heisei"

 

https://nosyudo.jp/b280108362/

 

I was surprised to see such a crudly made sword with Torokusho. By the sugata and kissaki of this sword I would have said it's its one of the lowest tiers of Showato, if not completely machine made. But it's signed by Kaneyoshi Okada.

 

I just get confused by looking at this sword, maybe it's lack of experience but everything about the blade looks like lowest tier (no geometric yokote, no hamon, machine made bo hi) but then there's a signature on it? 

 

 

I wish to learn and this is confusing to me, can someone explain what kind of Showato this is?

 

 

[BANGBANGSAN]

17 hours ago, Emil said:

I was browsing the swords at Nosyudo when I stumbled onto this Showato labelled as "Heisei"

 

https://nosyudo.jp/b280108362/

 

It looks like a regular 半鍛鍊 non-traditionally made Showa To. Maybe it was registered during the 平成 (Heisei) era.

[Emil]

8 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

It looks like a regular 半鍛鍊 non-traditionally made Showa To. Maybe it was registered during the 平成 (Heisei) era.

 

I see, maybe it's just a misconception on my end then. 

 

I've mainly seen Showato that looks like these pictures below in Japan. I didn't expect the one I linked to have a signature because I thought that was a practice exclusive for higher end Showato

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Good chance the Bo-hi was added later to suit Iaido use and makes the already rather poor Sugata appear even more awkward.

[Bruce Pennington]

9 hours ago, Emil said:

I didn't expect the one I linked to have a signature because I thought that was a practice exclusive for higher end Showato

Showato of all kinds and quality had mei.  I would say the majority of showato were signed.  There are plenty mumei to be found, but they are a minority.

[Yukihiro]

@Bruce Pennington There seems to be some confusion (at least from my point of view) as regards machine-made Showato - I take it that the majority of gunto smiths used machines during the sword-making process, but, the question I would like to ask is was there such a thing as a completely machine made Showato?

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, Yukihiro said:

is was there such a thing as a completely machine made Showato?

No

 

“Machine made“ is a term that I hate. Yet, it is a common term often used in the sword collecting world. After the China incident the Japanese military decided to go back to samurai styled swords, there was a massive need to produce a lot of swords to replace the old Western style sword. This created a shortage that the industry had to meet. Modern technology with hydraulic powered machines, allowed them to create more swords than they used to be able to do using traditional techniques. Steel cutting machines, hydraulic hammers, allowed Smith’s to produce many more swords per week and per month. Oil quenching allowed them to produce blades , without cracking.

 

All of this in today’s world created the terminology of the “machine made” sword. 
 

The NCO blades used the most machinery, if you want to say it that way. They used machines to roll a single type of steel and cut it into workable sizes, that could then be hydraulically hammered. All of this process involved people that worked the machines and worked the blades. None of it was automated. All of the blades were polished by hand and mounted in fittings by hand.

[Emil]

@Bruce Pennington what about the lowest tier from the commonly quoted production methods list? I assumed that one was the only one that could be called "machine made" as it appears at least by this description that it wasn't hammered into shape?

 

"9. Machine made. Serial number in the blade. No forging; stamped out and quenched in oil without differential hardening, assuming that they are hardened at all. No hada and no hamon. Some may in fact be plated, and in the worst cases the hamon may be acid etched onto the steel. The classic example is the NCO swords. On a par with Chinese fakes, and the most commonly faked sword.'

[Bruce Pennington]

Yes, this is the NCO blade process.  A person had to put the steel in the stamping machine, then take it, hold it, while it is hammered into shape, then hold it and dip it in oil to harden.  The take it to the polishers who polish them by hand.  Of them all, this form used the most machinery, but it wasn't automated.  People did the whole thing using machines.

 

It's semantics.  To me, "machine made" conjures images of todays assembly-line, automated processes where no people are needed.  There are smiths, today, that use hydraulic hammers in their work.  Is that "machine made"?  How many machines, then, must one use to qualify for the term? 2, 3?  

 

SMR used machines to roll the steel tubes and soft core steel rods, the used machines to insert the rods.  Then hydraulic hammers to shape them.  Do we call the Mantetsu blade "machine made"?  They likely used as many machines as the factories did on NCO blades.  

 

Sorry for being a pest on this.  In reality, the collector term is simply short-hand for "Was this blade made traditionally or non-traditionally?"  "Hand made or machine made" means the same thing.  

[Emil]

That's enlightening, thanks for clarifying @Bruce Pennington

 

Then I will leave my belief about a sword shape stamping machine in the past 

[Bruce Pennington]

18 minutes ago, Emil said:

shape stamping machine

Well, unless we can get @Stegel or @Shamsy to enlighten us, I don't think we know for sure how they got the 95s so uniformly the same.  You might be right in that idea, but I've never heard nor read about that specific step.

[RobCarter3]

I also hate the term “machine made.”  It gets carelessly thrown around on places like Reddit when people ask for gunto IDs.
 

IMO the only Japanese WWII blades that can accurately be called “machine made” are Type 95s, zoheito, and possibly the navy stainless blades (I’ve never been able to find good info on how these were actually made). 
 

Typical officer showato were “hand” forged to shape from bar stock by smiths using power hammers. Every blade is slightly different, and sayas and fittings do not freely interchange. They’re non-traditional because they aren’t made of tamahagane or orishigane and are oil quenched. Not because they’re not “hand forged”. 
 

Gendai smiths used power hammers too. If the use of power hammers makes a sword “machine made,” then most gendaito are “machine made.” 

[Bruce Pennington]

Update:  I checked with the World Renowned leading expert on Type 95s - @Stegel - about this.  He says that while we have no documentary or photographic proof, it's his wizened opinion that those blades were pressed or punched out in shape.  He owns about 80 of them and their near identical size and shape point to the idea that they were machine punched out in form.

[Emil]

@Bruce Pennington Thank you for sharing! This is probably as close to a fact as we can get on this matter

[Kiipu]

A great deal of information about the production of machine made blades can be accessed via Nick's WRF thread below.

System Kaizen behind the Type 32 Gunto production of the 1930s