Go Yoshihiro on Yahoo

[jelda44]

If someone didn't know what to do with money  
 

https://www.jauce.com/auction/s1154927293

[Andrew Ickeringill]

It's a scam, don't be fooled.

[Lewis B]

21 minutes ago, Andrew Ickeringill said:

It's a scam, don't be fooled.

With 170 bids someone is buying it. So many red flags. It's also Den Go if the papers are to be believed. 

[Hoshi]

Juyo papers are authentic.

 

The sword is actually a Tokuju Go (Session 5). 

 

Normally, when submitting for Tokuju, one has to hand in the Juyo papers for destruction to avoid these types of scams. This can be circumvented by losing the papers. Possibly, the papers were once lost, then found and bought by the scammer, who then spent considerable resources to create an elaborate fake to match the papers. 

 

Moreover, the scammer has arranged for a convincing replica of rather low-ish quality, but with a convincing hamon / boshi to the untrained eye. For experienced students it's however obvious that the thin and irregular nioiguchi is absolutely not the type of deki expected of Go Yoshihiro. There are also discrepancies elsewhere, e.g., Nakago, which has been reshaped to match the Go's Oshigata. 

 

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So many red flags. It's also Den Go if the papers are to be believed. 

 

"Den Go" is not a red flag. Den is +/- 5% and needs to be understood in context. There are "Den Go" out there that are superior in deki than "Go". The usage of Den varies across sessions and across smiths. Factors such as Kiwame and Kinzogan affect the use of Den, etc.

[Lewis B]

37 minutes ago, Hoshi said:

 

 

 

"Den Go" is not a red flag. Den is +/- 5% and needs to be understood in context. There are "Den Go" out there that are superior in deki than "Go". The usage of Den varies across sessions and across smiths. Factors such as Kiwame and Kinzogan affect the use of Den, etc.

Red flags regarding the back story, the unconvincing blade vs papers, low seller feedback, the clear images. First time I've heard Den being +/- 5%, but good to learn something new. What I understood was, taking Tametsugu as an example, Den Tametsugu could mean Norishige or Uda. If as you say the papers are authentic, a lot of effort was put into altering the oshigata (or can you see the original in the archives?) or the details on the blade to mimic the oshigata. It's quite a sophisticated effort to scam an unsuspecting buyer. How do you know if the Nakago was reshaped as there are no images with the tsuka removed? 

[Brian]

I get from Andrew and Hoshi's reply, this is a known fake sword, maybe it's done the rounds and those in the know are aware of the scam.
Thanks for the heads up. Someone is going to be crying.

[Hoshi]

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How do you know if the Nakago was reshaped as there are no images with the tsuka removed? 

 

The nakago photos are in another listing. You can find them here. Same fraud with the 'Awataguchi' blade by the way. 

 

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details on the blade to mimic the oshigata. It's quite a sophisticated effort to scam an unsuspecting buyer. 

 

The Oshigata is genuine, the NBHTK papers are genuine. The blade was made to resemble the Oshigata. 

 

The 'old' Torokusho is a fake, however. 

 

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First time I've heard Den being +/- 5%, but good to learn something new. What I understood was, taking Tametsugu as an example, Den Tametsugu could mean Norishige or Uda

 

Den Tametsugu can mean 80% Tametsugu, 20% Sanekage (Sanekage is the deki quality step in between Tametsugu and Norishige).  

 

Refer to Darcy's excellent articles here and here. 

 

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I get from Andrew and Hoshi's reply, this is a known fake sword, maybe it's done the rounds and those in the know are aware of the scam.
Thanks for the heads up. Someone is going to be crying.

 

It's not a known fake sword. First time I see it, hence why Andrew and I are warning about it. 

 

[Lewis B]

Good to know. So many pitfalls for the uninitiated. Acquiring genuine Zufu papers is what makes this scam so incredible and will catch out some savvy collectors as well as the novice. Isn't there a report button on Yahoo.jp auctions? Can't open the links as EU buyers are now blocked.

[Lewis B]

19 hours ago, Hoshi said:

 

The nakago photos are in another listing. You can find them here. Same fraud with the 'Awataguchi' blade by the way. 

 

 

 

OK, I saw the additional photos of the Nakago of the Go and the Awataguchi. The patina on the Nakago is suspiciously similar on both blades, suggesting a treatment to imitate the patina post modification. Finer details in the oshigata are not replicated on the surface either. Overall a very convincing deception at first glance. Some serious fraud is being perpetuated. 

[Lewis B]

And sold for almost $38,000 with 250 bids. I hope whoever won the auction pays with a credit card. 

[atm]

The meaning of “den” has been discussed a lot here at NMB, including: here  It is good to remind ourselves from time to time how it is intended within context.