Cast tsuba?

[RobertM]

Hi all,

 

I recieved this tsuba as a present, however i suspect it was purchased from a known seller who has been the topic of some conversation on this messageboard. My main concern with the tsuba is on the inside of the rim and carvings, running down the middle is a faint line. Does this mean the tsuba has been cast? Forgive my amateur question as its the first tsuba ive ever held in my hand. Sorry for the poor photo's. Description given was Owari copper tsuba, late edo period.

 

Many thanks

 

Rob M

 

Edit Admin - pics resized from huge to just big

[Grey Doffin]

I've never heard of an Owari sukashi (open work) tsuba in soft metal; I think they're all iron. I guess cast.

But what do I know? Let's hear from some others.

Grey

[raven2]

I would have to agree with Grey, I think it is cast.

[uwe]

Hi Rob,

hold the tsuba with two fingers on one point near the mimi and hit it slightly on a stone surface. Cast iron should engender a lumpish or hushed tone than wrought iron. Don`t know if it works in any case, but I was able to sort out a cast tsuba from an wakizashi koshirae (vexed eb.... :x ) this way.

Uwe

[Brian]

..Except this isn't iron Uwe, it's copper.

And that test isn't reliable on iron according to the experts here.

 

Brian

[uwe]

Upps.....copper....forget my post

Uwe

[Mike]

Hi

Cast or not, I can't tell from the photos, but copper Owari? that's new to me.

Mike

[sanjuro]

Cast without a doubt...... Possibly Chinese but cant be certain. The subject matter of the decoration is most puzzling since the long eared rabbit and other elements of the design have no relationship as far as I am aware (I'm willing to be proved wrong of course). The patination seems contrived and artificial looking. Sorry to be so negative here, but thats how I see it. Better pics in focus would help a lot though.

[Ford Hallam]

Keith,

 

the motif of long eared rabbits and waves was, and is, actually a remarkably common design in Japan.

 

 

Apparently the design originates from the No theatre. A courtier crossing Lake Biwa recites a poem that remarks on the moon reflected on the waves....and thereby the rabbits on the moon ( obvious really ) now appear to run on the waves.

 

While I agree that it's a modern cast copy I believe it was made from a mould taken from a genuine tsuba. It doesn't look anything at all like Owari though...the way the waves are carved and the relative openness reminds me more of certain types of Ko-Shoami guards.

 

regards,

 

ford

[RobertM]

thanks guys

 

Robert M

[Mantis dude]

I think it should be commented that while this is most likely a cast piece, a line like that on an iron tsuba could be an indication of a fold (well maybe not exactly like that), I don't have an example of some akasaka pieces that demonstrate but maybe someone else does or some other school where you can really see the fold. Point is a line running down the inside of the side wall doesn't automatically mean cast, it could also mean fold which is very desirable to see.

 

The hare and waves is a very common, i can't remember exactly been a while but the rabbit under the moon has a meaning of reproduction (sexual) I think. Most of my books are packed away for a move, but that is popping into my head. I of course could have made that up, maybe I am just horny. LOL. These repros (chinese or whereever they are from) all seem to have a similar look and if you go on ebay or yahoo.jp, you usually can find the same seller selling a lot of them. Doesn't take long to start recognizing them when you see a bunch of them. You get that "feel" for them so you don't have to waste your time looking at them when scanning auctions.

 

Just curious while on the topic, has anyone ever seen an article or discussion on real Japanese cast tsuba? over the years there has been some mentions here and there on the forums, but has there ever been a more academic discussion? I am still under the impression that casting has been done before modern times? Has anyone ever seen older cast pieces, say pre meiji? I have an older one but I wouldn't know how to date it. Maybe I will write about it after I move and I can take pics of it (it is packed away, actually I have 2 of them and that is how I learned it was cast). The clues became more apparent with closer insepection but it fooled several experienced guys because it looked old. it took more of a second look to id the cast clues. However, as I said I didn't even question the piece until I had purchased a second one. Subsequently I have seen one or 2 more on yahoo.jp over the years. My first one was mounted on a wakisashi that seemed to fit well and I assume had been mounted for a long time. The good news was while I purchased the wak for the tsuba, I sold the wak minus the tsuba and made $50 so I actually got the tsuba for free. Oh the early days of ebay.

[John A Stuart]

Hi Ken, Kagamishi tsuba are all cast. John

[reinhard]

The hare and waves is a very common, i can't remember exactly but the rabbit under the moon has a meaning of reproduction (sexual) I think.

 

Bunnies in a whirl-pool under the moon of love. Check short treatises by famous philosopher Mr.Hugh Hefner.

 

reinhard

[Henry Wilson]

Point is a line running down the inside of the side wall doesn't automatically mean cast, it could also mean fold which is very desirable to see.

 

Evidence of a fold in Akasaka work is not desirable from what I have read. I think some schools of thought regard Akasaka folds as a sign of lower quality.

[Grey Doffin]

Here is an auction out of Japan ending soon

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320474616458&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

The seller admits the tsuba is cast and claims it dates to the 1860's (looks more like 2009 to me). I doubt someone making a cast copy pre-Meiji would have cast the seki-gane; they'd have been removed 1st. Amazing the price this is going for.

Grey

[Mantis dude]

Grey,

 

You have to admit it is a nice casting of the sekigane. That is the first time I have seen that but then again I don't study casts alot. That is kind of funny. That one goes under strange and plus we have a new thing to add to the list of casting giveaways- sekigane is part of the seppa dai in iron. I can't stand lazy casters. Although, in all seriousness, if this was from a mounted blade and the owner for some reason wanted a copy then I could see there a desire not to muck with the existing piece and therefore it was cast as is. Plus how do you date the cast piece? itstll

 

Henry.... Can you elaborate, first time I heard of this, I always heard to look for signs of folding - not particular to akasaka per say but that signs of folding was positive and showed the plate being worked which was a good thing. Interesting to hear something new. Thanks.

Ken

[Henry Wilson]

I think Sasano states that folding and plate lines are usually found in what is regraded as lower quality pieces of the Akasaka group. From what I recall, people were not sure if Akasaka were layered or not, but a tsuba by the the 1st Akasaka was burnt in a fire and the outer skin came away revealing a well covered three plate structure. The current thinking is that all Akasaka are layered, just that the good ones conceal it better.

 

Also, I could very well be wrong as I am by no means any sort of authority on this at all, just repeating what I think I read, so anyone out there in NMB-land feel free to correct me or join in on the discussion.