Emil Posted September 29 Report Share Posted September 29 Does anyone have a copy of the book Military Swords of Japan, 1868-194 by Richard Fuller and Ron Gregory? I'm very interested in where the conclusion originated from that mill steel gendaito was "more commonly made of Swedish railroad steel" so any references with more context from the book would be highly appreciated. I can't get my hands on the book myself. (No shipping options) I'm researching a Showato that I have and a lot of my conclusions are pointing toward "Mill-steel gendaito" forged from mill steel (or more often) 19th century railway tracks made from Swedish steel. As often quoted by Fuller and Gregory. Being Swedish that has some extra significance to me and I'm trying not be biased by my hope that it could be. Therefore I'm deep diving into the historical sources, trying to find answers. I find a lot of contradictions in this area of research. This article from Ryujin swords mentions "The best ‘mill steel’ gendaito are made from mid-19th century railway tracks that were manufactured from Swedish steel and exported to Japan" It goes on to say that it was "blister steel" which had uneven carbon distribution and resulted in hada similar to tamahagane. My problem with this is that the Japanese started building their railway in 1872 and ramping up in the following years. This is the time when Bessemer steel started (1868), especially in Sweden with the start of Domnarvet ironworks (1972), focused on railroad production and most of the Japanese railroad would have been built with Bessmer steel, part of it from Sweden as they had 1/5th of the patent and were pioneering the commercialization of the British Bessmer invention. Bessemer steel were of very high quality with even distribution of carbon, which goes against the whole argument of formation of hada similar to tamahagane based on uneven carbon distribution? I'm digging through all English and Swedish sources I can find on the topic of steel exports, Japanese railroad in the 1800s and sword making. If you have any interesting sources, please share it here. ryujinswords-tang-stamps-2017-1218.pdf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PNSSHOGUN Posted September 29 Report Share Posted September 29 Wouldn't put too much faith in what is written in that book regarding all the steels, much of the knowledge regarding blades has been well and truly eclipsed. The Japanese produced their own high purity steels, there are some rather comprehensive articles on the various steels used below: https://ohmura--study-net.translate.goog/006.html?_x_tr_sch=http&_x_tr_sl=ja&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-GB https://ohmura--stud...en-GB&_x_tr_sch=http 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BANGBANGSAN Posted September 30 Report Share Posted September 30 http://ohmura-study.net/006.html 刃物鍛冶の名人・千代鶴是秀は先述したように、スウェーデンのダンネモラ鉱山の鋼を専ら使い、国産の鋼は切れ味が悪くて使わな いと明言していた。 刀匠で後に刃物鍛冶になった長島宗則は「大正頃のヨーロッパの鋼は素晴らしかった」と述懐している。 河合綱商店が和鋼を基に成分規格を提示、スウェーデンのダンネモラ鉱山が産出する地鉄を使って英国のアンドリユー社が成分調整 した鋼を生産した。 千代鶴是秀が先鞭をつけた東郷ハガネの鉋（かんな）は、戦後僅かに残った在庫を使い、現在も鉋の最高級品として販売されている。 The master swordsmith 千代鶴是秀 Chiyozuru Korehide, as previously mentioned, exclusively used steel from the Dannemora mine in Sweden, and clearly stated that he would not use domestic steel due to its poor cutting performance. The swordsmith-turned-blade smith, 長島宗則 Munenori Nagashima, also reminisced, saying, “The European steel around the Taisho era was outstanding.” 河合綱商店 Kawai Tsuuna Shoten established a composition standard based on traditional Japanese steel (Wakou) and produced steel in cooperation with the Andrew Company in the UK, using base iron sourced from the Dannemora mine in Sweden. The 東郷ハガネ "Togo Hagane" planes 鉋( kanna), pioneered by 千代鶴是秀 Chiyozuru Korehide, were made using the limited post-war stock and are still sold today as top-grade planes. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Pennington Posted September 30 Report Share Posted September 30 El, I saw nothing in either Fuller's nor Dawson's books that specified Swedish rail steel, just simply "imported western steels". What I DID find was a reference to it in Leon Kapp & Yoshinndo Yoshihara's book "Modenr Japanese Swords and Swordsmiths, From 1868 to the Present. 3 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emil Posted October 2 Author Report Share Posted October 2 Thank you very much for the helpful information @Bruce Pennington that's spot on! Exactly the kind of information I was looking for, I'm so grateful for you taking the time to find that for me, thank you! On 9/30/2024 at 5:44 AM, Bruce Pennington said: Modern Japanese Swords and Swordsmiths The two pages you sent from this book, is there more information along those lines? If so, I think I need to order myself a copy of that book I'm very interested in learning more about the whole Showato era related to the sword production. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Pennington Posted October 2 Report Share Posted October 2 There is plenty about WWII sword production and numbers. The part I sent was all that I could see about using Swedish rails. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emil Posted October 3 Author Report Share Posted October 3 @Bruce Pennington this list always gets quoted whenever someone asks about a showato here. Do you know the origins of it? It was my understanding that it came from Fuller? 1. Tamahagane gendaito. Fully hand forged and differentially hardened in the traditional manner using water as a quenching agent. Possesses an active hamon and hada. 2. Mill-steel gendaito. Fully hand forged from mill steel or (more often) 19th century railway tracks made from Swedish steel. Differentially hardened in the traditional manner using water as a quenching agent. Possesses an active hamon and hada. 3. Koa-isshin Mantetsu-to. Made from Manchurian steel by a special process. Partly forged, partly engineered, and differentially hardened in the traditional manner using water as a quenching agent. Possesses an active hamon and hada. 4. Han-tanren abura yaki-ire-to. Partially forged from mill stock, some folding, differentially hardened using oil. Does have a hamon although it is nowhere near as active as a water-quenched sword, but lacks hada. 5. Sunobe abura yaki-ire-to. Drawn down, forged to shape, not folded. Differential hardened using oil, may have a fairly inactive hamon, but no hada. 6. Mantetsu-to. Rolled from Manchurian railway tracks. Differential hardening using oil, may have a fairly inactive hamon, but no hada. 7. Murata-to. Rolled or drawn, oil hardened but not differentially hardened. Yakiba but no visible hamon and no hada. 8. Tai-sabi-ko. Stainless steel, oil-hardened, no grain, no hamon, possible yakiba. Made for the Imperial Japanese Navy to resist salt corrosion. 9. Machine made. Serial number in the blade. No forging; stamped out and quenched in oil without differential hardening, assuming that they are hardened at all. No hada and no hamon. Some may in fact be plated, and in the worst cases the hamon may be acid etched onto the steel. The classic example is the NCO swords. On a par with Chinese fakes, and the most commonly faked sword. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROKUJURO Posted October 3 Report Share Posted October 3 Emil, I have small rails from a mine made in about 1850 from German production. They have some carbon (about 0.5% C), but more relevant is their manganese content. This makes the steel suitable for its purpose as it shows pronounced work-hardening properties making the surface harder with use, thus reducing wear. These steels are also superior in their through-hardening capacity. A negative side (for the swordsmith or knife-maker) is that they cannot be quenched in water; they are very likely to crack. Earlier rail production was indeed basically done with puddle steel, but it did not prove too useful as it is quite soft. Because of the tensile strength, it was widely used as construction material for bridges and buildings (e.g. Eiffel tower). 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Pennington Posted October 3 Report Share Posted October 3 8 hours ago, Emil said: it came from Fuller? Yes, pages 220-221 of "Japanese Military and Civil Swords and Dirks", 1996/7 edition. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emil Posted October 3 Author Report Share Posted October 3 1 hour ago, ROKUJURO said: A negative side (for the swordsmith or knife-maker) is that they cannot be quenched in water; they are very likely to crack. That's interesting, it's usually said that even the good tamahagane smiths will lose 10% of their swords in the water quenching process. I've read that oil was a better medium for inexperienced sword makers. I haven't heard your argument that the differencee in steel composition made the showato steel more likely to crack. But it makes sense to me, especially since they had to work on a lot of different steels with different properties all the time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Pennington Posted October 3 Report Share Posted October 3 8 hours ago, Emil said: 19th century railway tracks made from Swedish steel. Oops! I glanced right by that and didn’t notice the Swedish reference! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emil Posted October 3 Author Report Share Posted October 3 24 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said: Oops! I glanced right by that and didn’t notice the Swedish reference! That's alright, I managed to search through all relevant sword books today. Stumbled onto this website today and I can really recommend it, it's a virtual library where you can "borrow" all the sword books you want for free, basically just reading them in your browser without the function to save them. And because they are digitalized you can even search for words and terms like "swedish steel". Great for when you want to conduct quick research on very narrow topics. https://archive.org/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROKUJURO Posted October 3 Report Share Posted October 3 5 hours ago, Emil said: That's interesting, it's usually said that even the good tamahagane smiths will lose 10% of their swords in the water quenching process. I've read that oil was a better medium for inexperienced sword makers. I haven't heard your argument that the differences in steel composition made the showato steel more likely to crack. But it makes sense to me, especially since they had to work on a lot of different steels with different properties all the time Emil, YAKIIRE (water quenching) is always a risk and may lead to failure even on very pure, low alloy, high carbon steels. On the other side, oil hardening is absolutely necessary for most modern industrial steels because of the alloying elements which require a softer/slower cooling rate in quenching. It has not so much to do with the experience of a smith, it is mostly a material property. As far as we know, NANBAN (foreign) steel was just used as a component in the sword billet, not used as pure steel. Concerning industrial steel SHOWA-TO, they are usually quite sturdy and resilient and do not crack easily, even in cold climate. A number of those were oil-quenched which shows in the HAMON (see the useful FULLER chart). However, it is never as vivid as in traditionally made blades and does not show NIE or other HATARAKI. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emil Posted October 3 Author Report Share Posted October 3 Thank you Jean, I'm learning a lot here. I appreciate you taking the time to explain things for me. This information is not easy to come by, even after reading through several books now, I'm starting to see that the hard, technical facts on showato and its production methods is very scarce. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BANGBANGSAN Posted October 24 Report Share Posted October 24 On 10/4/2024 at 3:10 AM, Emil said: Thank you Jean, I'm learning a lot here. I appreciate you taking the time to explain things for me. This information is not easy to come by, even after reading through several books now, I'm starting to see that the hard, technical facts on showato and its production methods is very scarce. Swedish steel Company " Shellberg from Höganäs AB" mentioned 日支事変勃発のニュースは、端典の各地の工場視察を終わり、ストックホルムの旅舎に 帰った直後に聞いた。 その時瑞典の銑鉄は、二二〇クローネ（当時の為替平価、五三銭七厘）迄にはね上って いることを知った。これは二ヶ月前には九〇クローネだったということに対し、実に二倍 半の値上りである。その頃、チェルベルジーを経て買付た瑞典のフーフォース社の原料フ ープ三八ポンド（当時の為替時価、二〇円）という、東京よりの知らせがあった。このこ とは正に、原料価格が数ヶ月前に於ける、吾々の製品価格に相当するところ迄騰貴したこ とで、真に容易ならぬ場面が展開して来た訳である. I heard the news of the outbreak of the Sino-Japanese Incident just after returning to my lodging in Stockholm, following inspections at various factories in Denmark. At that time, I learned that the price of Swedish pig iron had soared to 220 kronor (equivalent to 53.7 sen at the exchange rate then). This was an astonishing increase, as it had been 90 kronor just two months earlier, representing a rise of two and a half times. Around that time, I received news from Tokyo that Swedish raw material hoop iron weighing 38 pounds, purchased via Shellberg from Höganäs AB, was priced at 20 yen (based on the current exchange rate at the time). This meant that the price of raw materials had surged to a level equivalent to the price of our products a few months earlier, signaling the beginning of a truly challenging situation. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Manley Posted October 29 Report Share Posted October 29 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Pennington Posted October 29 Report Share Posted October 29 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emil Posted October 30 Author Report Share Posted October 30 Wow, thanks guys! This is great information Interesting to read that they dissolved the steel and mixed it with the Japanese steel, that's a rather odd thing to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul griff Posted Friday at 10:44 AM Report Share Posted Friday at 10:44 AM Hello Emil, Is this what you are after ? Regards, Paul. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emil Posted Saturday at 04:56 PM Author Report Share Posted Saturday at 04:56 PM Hi Paul! Yes that's the book I was looking for, and any references to Swedish steel in it. I believe Bruce got me everything in there already. Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul griff Posted Saturday at 07:23 PM Report Share Posted Saturday at 07:23 PM Hello Emil, No problem… Regards, Paul.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROKUJURO Posted Saturday at 09:31 PM Report Share Posted Saturday at 09:31 PM On 10/30/2024 at 7:52 AM, Emil said: ......Interesting to read that they dissolved the steel and mixed it with the Japanese steel, that's a rather odd thing to do. Emil, the text should not be taken literally. The steel components were of course melted to liquid state, and a new alloy was made. This is standard work and no problem for a steel plant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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