Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Posted

OK sounds good...I will apply some mineral oil to the blade and tang...that's easy.

 

Any other thoughts on the origin of the blade? I am afraid nobody (even here) will be able to determine the history of it, since the tang and "mei" signature are so rusted.

 

I feel bad it's in such poor shape...I think it sat in a flooded basement for a long time.

Posted

Hi all, ;)

 

I was reading these interesting threads when a question came to my mind. We all know well that removing rust from a nakago is a sacrilege because it helps to determine the age of the sword etc... But in case of Dave's nakago, it appears that some areas are more rusty than others. When I see Dave's tsuka condition it seems obvious that the deep rust has developed faster due the partial absence of tsuka.

 

I mean the rusting process (in some areas)has been accelerate more because the sword has been neglected, it is not really natural wear.To me, the real patina is the one where we can still see the files marks, these parts IMHO, shows the real age of the sword.

 

So could it be sensible to "clean" this deep/active rust to make the nakago homogeneous, especially if it can help to read the mei. I do not know if am clear but these deep/active rust is more "ageing artificially" the nakago, so then could maybe removed by a qualified man(togishi).

 

As an example, if I plunge a fresh new shinsakuto blade in water for few days, then the nakago will be rusty. The blade will look older just because it has been neglected.

 

What do you guys think?

Posted

I think if a blade in this condition were given to a properly trained polisher, along with the normal polishing job, some of the rust on the nakago would disappear. Then it might be possible to read the mei. However, this is something that shouldn't be attempted by anyone without proper training.

Grey

Posted

Thanks everyone. Is there anything else we can tell without reading the mei?

 

So what does everyone reccommend I do now?

 

I live in upstate NY as well as in New York City...so should I find someone that is qualified to clean/polish the tang? How much would this cost? Is it worth it so we can read the "mei" signature?

 

What are the chances that the "mei" signature is ruined and unreadable?

 

Or should I just mineral oil it up and leave it as is?

 

Thanks.

Posted
I think if a blade in this condition were given to a properly trained polisher, along with the normal polishing job, some of the rust on the nakago would disappear. Then it might be possible to read the mei. However, this is something that shouldn't be attempted by anyone without proper training.

Grey

Grey,

Having done this on my very rusty Hizen Tadahiro tang as bad or worse than Dave's sword I don't entirely agree, more so as the sword got a Tokubetsu Hozon from the NBTHK after polish, so I must have done something right. The active, crusty red rust can - and should - be removed by crushing with a PLASTIC hammer on a wooden block. Needless to say this must be done with care. Dave, you don't need to take your sword to anybody else as you can do this yourself - BUT, BIG BUT - the process must be done with great care and caution and it is likely to take you many, many hours. You need bright light, magnifier head set, cloth to hold the bare blade (yes, do it with the blade bare) and tackle a small area at a time. Alternate plastic hammer strikes with "boning" - use the bone out of a roast leg of lamb end on and rub with oil on the rust spot, alternating these two techniques. The watchword is SLOW. You are working to remove the red, active rust. A most important point to observe (check this with your magnifier) is to not damage or crush the "chisel pillow" of the characters and strokes that are clear and unrusted. As Ford Hallam has said elsewhere on NMB, the chisels used to produce a signature on a Japanese sword tang displace metal, not remove it. So with these caveats of care, caution and infinite patience I don't see why you should not attempt this yourself. Nobody you know in your country can do it better than yourself because it is your sword.

 

Regards,

BaZZa.

Posted

Hello,

 

I might be a little skeptical of the story . I don't doubt your Grandfather received these items from his friend. However, they are very unlikely to be from a naval officer. The fittings on the blade are of an Army shin gunto with a leather saya cover

which even the naval land forces would be unlikely to have. Secondly, Japanese survivors of ship sinkings were known to refuse rescue by allied ships. They would rather drown than lose face by being captured . A ship's captain would never submit to such shame. In any case, he would not have his sword with him during battle.

Your Grandfather probably did not know the difference or care. They were just war souvenirs .

 

William G.

Posted
Hello,

 

I might be a little skeptical of the story . I don't doubt your Grandfather received these items from his friend. However, they are very unlikely to be from a naval officer. The fittings on the blade are of an Army shin gunto with a leather saya cover

which even the naval land forces would be unlikely to have. Secondly, Japanese survivors of ship sinkings were known to refuse rescue by allied ships. They would rather drown than lose face by being captured . A ship's captain would never submit to such shame. In any case, he would not have his sword with him during battle.

Your Grandfather probably did not know the difference or care. They were just war souvenirs .

 

William G.

 

Yeah we were always skeptical of the story...it was most likely confiscated by my grandfather's friend, the captain of the medical ship, from a wounded soldier...I guess he was the captain of the ship, he could do what he wanted! It was so long ago, there is really no way of getting the real story.

Posted
I think if a blade in this condition were given to a properly trained polisher, along with the normal polishing job, some of the rust on the nakago would disappear. Then it might be possible to read the mei. However, this is something that shouldn't be attempted by anyone without proper training.

Grey

Grey,

Having done this on my very rusty Hizen Tadahiro tang as bad or worse than Dave's sword I don't entirely agree, more so as the sword got a Tokubetsu Hozon from the NBTHK after polish, so I must have done something right. The active, crusty red rust can - and should - be removed by crushing with a PLASTIC hammer on a wooden block. Needless to say this must be done with care. Dave, you don't need to take your sword to anybody else as you can do this yourself - BUT, BIG BUT - the process must be done with great care and caution and it is likely to take you many, many hours. You need bright light, magnifier head set, cloth to hold the bare blade (yes, do it with the blade bare) and tackle a small area at a time. Alternate plastic hammer strikes with "boning" - use the bone out of a roast leg of lamb end on and rub with oil on the rust spot, alternating these two techniques. The watchword is SLOW. You are working to remove the red, active rust. A most important point to observe (check this with your magnifier) is to not damage or crush the "chisel pillow" of the characters and strokes that are clear and unrusted. As Ford Hallam has said elsewhere on NMB, the chisels used to produce a signature on a Japanese sword tang displace metal, not remove it. So with these caveats of care, caution and infinite patience I don't see why you should not attempt this yourself. Nobody you know in your country can do it better than yourself because it is your sword.

 

Regards,

BaZZa.

 

Sounds good, I definitely think I can do this.

 

When you use the term "crushing" the active crusty rust with a plastic hammer, do you mean "banging" the rust off and using the hammer like it was designed to be used?

 

OR do you mean "crushing" the rust off by "grinding" it gently and "working the rust off" with a plastic hammer?

 

What shape plastic hammer? Round nosed I assume?

 

Lastly, why use the bone from a roast leg of lamb? How is this different from just using a plastic hammer, and what technique do I use with this leg of lamb? Seems very strange...interesting, but strange. What other tool could be used in case?

 

I will be carfeul ofcourse...I don't know how a plastic hammer and some mineral oil is going to damage the steel "chisel pillow" of the characters though...How would this happen? Just so I understand how I can avoid it.

 

Thanks everyone...sounds like a fun project I have ahead of me. Hope to find out more soon.

Posted
I think if a blade in this condition were given to a properly trained polisher, along with the normal polishing job, some of the rust on the nakago would disappear. Then it might be possible to read the mei. However, this is something that shouldn't be attempted by anyone without proper training.

Grey

Grey,

...So with these caveats of care, caution and infinite patience I don't see why you should not attempt this yourself. Nobody you know in your country can do it better than yourself because it is your sword.

 

Regards,

BaZZa.

 

Dave,

You wrote:

> When you use the term "crushing" the active crusty rust with a plastic hammer,

> do you mean "banging" the rust off and using the hammer like it was designed to be used?

Yes, I mean "banging". Red rust is very hard stuff, especially when a lump is bonded to the base metal and not "loose and crusty".

 

> OR do you mean "crushing" the rust off by "grinding" it gently

> and "working the rust off" with a plastic hammer?

The hammer is to "crush" or "knock off" the more "crusty" and therefore easily removed encrustations. The "grinding" - more like careful and gentle abrading - is done with the bone/antler/ivory and oil, alternating between the two as experience dictates. Periodically during "boning" I clean the oil and rust off with a cotton cloth to check progress.

 

> What shape plastic hammer? Round nosed I assume?

I think flat is better. The idea is to try and use a small area to attack the rust, so I use a flat hammer slightly canted so a small contact area on the periphery/edge of the plastic contacts the encrusted red rust. This delivers a more concentrated force than using an entire flat area, or even the area of a round-nose hammer.

 

> Lastly, why use the bone from a roast leg of lamb? How is this

> different from just using a plastic hammer, and what technique

> do I use with this leg of lamb? Seems very strange...interesting,

> but strange. What other tool could be used in case?

I think Stephen has addressed this in a PM to you. The hammer is used to break up friable rust encrustations, and when the hammer can do no more the bone/antler/ivory is used to gently work away at the remaining rust. I MUST EMPHASISE HERE that this is the most delicate and time consuming phase of the cleaning, because it is most important NOT to work through the rust layer to the bright iron underneath. BAD, BAD, BAD. It is better to stop a little sooner than go toO far. I might also add that you can expect this work to take months - months - of careful and gentle work.

 

> I will be careful of course...I don't know how a plastic hammer

> and some mineral oil is going to damage the steel "chisel pillow"

> of the characters though...How would this happen? Just so I

> understand how I can avoid it.

Well, plastic is of course most unlikely to damage an iron chisel pillow. The danger, as I have mentioned above, is to NOT 'break through' the rust to the bright iron underneath. However, the chisel pillow of a character is a very, very small contact area and it is VERY easy to work through the rust in this sharply defined area and turn it to bright iron. Very undesirable.

 

Now here is a confession from a seasoned campaigner. I sometimes use a small, cross-pane hammer with a brass head - this is a hand-formed head. Again, I use it slightly canted to deliver more force to a small area. The disadvantage of brass is that it can leave a yellow coating on the rust, but the gentle abrading of bone/horn/ivory with oil will remove this. While I was working on my Tadahiro tang our polisher visited from Japan and was most adamant that NO METAL be used in this rust removal. He emphasised the danger to the chisel pillow, but I do use the small brass hammer judiciously on areas away from any characters, areas where there is a particularly stubborn agglomeration of red rust - in some circumstances red rust approaches glass-hardness.

 

So, for the those who have gone glass-eyed reading thus far, how do we clean the characters. Generally speaking, cleaning grot etc out of characters on an otherwise good condition tang is undesirable and can cost you dearly at Shinsa. However, Dave's tang is so - er - knackered I don't think it is a concern. In my experience, I believe you may be surprised at how much of the characters will have survived under the dreadful rust. I hope some expert can prove me wrong here, but somewhere I read that rust occupies five times the volume of the parent metal, so in short it looks worse than it is. The first issue is to remove the pustulent rust then see what is left of the characters. Apart from my Tokubetsu Hozon Hizen Tadahiro, I have performed the above on a dated Chikuzen Nobukuni katana where the tang was so badly rusted nothing could be read. Of course I worked on the katana mei first to determine the smith. That turned out to be a date, so I turned to the tachi mei. I could read it all after a lot of work, but there is a huge amount of work still waiting. I doubt the blade is worth polishing, but there is the experience FWIW.

 

I think this is probably more than enough...

 

Regards,

BazZa.

Posted

Thanks BazZa! That helps a lot.

 

Thanks to everyone else for the info. I am going to start the project tonight...hopefully later this week, I will have some of the characters cleaned off enough that they are legible...but ofcourse I will take my time above all.

 

More pictures to come...sooner or later.

Posted
Hello,

I might be a little skeptical of the story . I don't doubt your Grandfather received these items from his friend. However, they are very unlikely to be from a naval officer. The fittings on the blade are of an Army shin gunto with a leather saya cover

which even the naval land forces would be unlikely to have. Secondly, Japanese survivors of ship sinkings were known to refuse rescue by allied ships. They would rather drown than lose face by being captured . A ship's captain would never submit to such shame. In any case, he would not have his sword with him during battle.

Your Grandfather probably did not know the difference or care. They were just war souvenirs .

 

William G.

 

WOW - so a huge update...through some research online, I found some amazing info! The sword and pistol were INDEED confiscated from a high ranking officer on the Japanese hospital ship, Tachi Bana Maru - actually a DISGUISED hospital ship carrying soldiers and weapons.

 

 

So the name of my grandfather's friend, Dr. Eugene F. Melaville, who was the "captain of the medical ship" was actually a Lt. Colonel, division surgeon in the pacific. I found this in the "US Army Medical Dept. Office of Medical History" website...below is Chapter 13, which is a "diary" like writing, very detailed, written by the late Ashley W. Oughterson, M.D:

 

http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs/wwii/actvssurgconvol2/chapter13.htm

 

CHAPTER XIII

 

From Auckland to Tokyo

 

Ashley W. Oughterson, M.D.

 

INTRODUCTORY NOTE

 

The material in this chapter is derived from the official wartime diary of the late Ashley W. Oughterson, M.D., and is presented in substantially the form in which the then Colonel Oughterson prepared it. The original plan was for Dr. Oughterson to write this chapter, from his diary and other official papers. With his untimely death, that plan became impossible, and, since no one else possessed the information, the best solution seemed to be to use the material he had recorded during the war...(((this continues..Here is the applicable section of the diary to MY SWORD and MY Nambu pistol and how they were captured:

 

Morotai Island, Indonesia, Tuesday, 7 August

 

A Japanese hospital ship was captured in the Banda Sea and brought into Morotai Island, Indonesia. With Col. Hollis Batchelder of the U.S.S. Mercy to assist, I was dispatched to Morotai by special plane, arriving at Morotai at 1600 hours. We reported to Maj. Gen. Harry H. Johnson, Commanding General, 93d Infantry Division. He is National Guard from Houston, Tex., and a forceful pleasant Texan who gave us real southern hospitality, and as good a steak dinner with hot biscuits as I have ever had. Colonel Jackson is his chief of staff.

 

Wednesday, 8 August

 

Went with the division surgeon, Colonel Melaville [Lt. Col. Eugene F. Melaville, MC], to see the port director, Commander Harrison, who gave us permission to board the Japanese hospital ship, Tachi Bana Maru. This ship had been intercepted in the Banda Sea on 3 August. A destroyer flotilla had gone out for this purpose.

 

Verne Lippard [Lt. Col. (later Col.) Vernon W. Lippard, MC] just came up to tell me the radio announced that the Japanese have accepted the Potsdam ultimatum.

 

38Medical Department, United States Army. Cold Injury, Ground Type. Washington: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1958, appendix H, p. 533.

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

886

 

After boarding the Japanese hospital ship with a walkie-talkie [radio], they [the boarding party] found contraband and summoned an armed boarding party to take charge. There were so many Japanese (1,600) on board that they did not dare go below to search. The exterior of the ship was marked according to the rules of the Geneva Convention. The patients were sleeping on mats spread on top of the cargo, which was mostly contraband and consisted of boxes and bales that were packed with rifles, machineguns, mortars, grenades, and ammunition. Boxes were marked with large red crosses.

 

There were no seriously ill patients aboard, and all personnel walked off the ship. About a dozen were examined on the dock and sent to the 155th Station Hospital with diagnoses of beri beri, malaria, and fever of unknown origin. There were no wounded, and there was only one surgical patient with an infected leg ulcer. The patients, about 1,500, were said to be the slightly ill. On the whole, they appeared healthy and well nourished.

 

We visited a compound where 97 officers were interned. They were polite, said they were satisfied with their care, and that no one was sick. A visit to another compound of enlisted men showed several sick men. The chief surgeon of the ship said that he did not know that the boxes and bales contained contraband. No records were available to prove whether these had been bona fide patients before embarkation, and the confusion on shipboard was such that records could not be located. Looting by sailors undoubtedly caused part of the confusion. The ship was in a wretched sanitary condition. The stench was terrific. Clearly, this is a violation of the Geneva Convention.

 

Manila, Thursday, 9 August

 

Flew back. Left Morotai at 1000, arrived on Leyte at 1500 hours.

 

 

 

AND here is a scan of the bronze star paperwork Dr. Melaville received...(we have the bronze star as well)

melavillescan.jpg

Posted

The Tachibana maru was captured, not sunk, so wartime memorabilia would definitely survive. It was capture bt the destroyers CHARRETTE commanded by Lt. Comdr. Gerald P. Joyce of

Green Bay, Wisconsin and the CONNER commanded by Lt. Comdr. William Sissons of

Detroit, Michigan. Nice to see the history come together. John

Posted
The Tachibana maru was captured, not sunk, so wartime memorabilia would definitely survive. It was capture bt the destroyers CHARRETTE commanded by Lt. Comdr. Gerald P. Joyce of

Green Bay, Wisconsin and the CONNER commanded by Lt. Comdr. William Sissons of

Detroit, Michigan. Nice to see the history come together. John

 

Ah ok thanks for the additional info!

 

It looks like my family friend Lt. Col. Melaville was called to board the ship on Aug. 8th in the port of Moratai Indonesia because he was the division surgeon and was told to investigate the so called "sick and injured" soldiers. The Tachibana maru was supposed to be a medical ship, but they found an arsenal of weapons and soldiers. Really interesting story for sure.

Posted

thank you very much for sharing the piece of history inwhich your grandpa was involved.

these are the details of WWII that are rarely told, but make the war human, and not just a recitation of a series of battles.

 

i hope you are able to keep these "war booty" and care for the sword and pistol as grandpa did for 60+ years.

 

doug e

Posted

:thanks: for the interesting story. This shows again that sometimes single facts, which do not seem to fit together (like the mountings of the sword and the place of its surrender - a Japanese ship) make perfect sense after hearing the complete story.

As a lawyer I may tell you that this happens more often than one might think.

 

Cheers,

Posted

Great story, with the provenance to me it only reinforces the fact that it needs to be restored, Id have David McDonald rebuild the tsuka and wrap, then think about a polish later.

Posted

Ok so I spent a few hours each night for the past few nights crushing away with a plastic hammer and mineral oil. A lot of the crusty active rust has come off, revealing some of the "mei." It was pretty amazing...I would smack an area of the tang a bunch of times, and with each smack, the character would come clearer and clearer...

 

I am having some trouble revealing the bottom 1 or 2 characters (not sure how many there are under there). No matter how hard I smack the bottom of the tang, no rust comes off, and no characters come clear. Also, I am not sure if there is a character at the very top of the "mei" - Do we know how many characters there SHOULD be?

 

Anyway, here is my progress so far...

 

IMG_0639.jpg

 

IMG_0647.jpg

 

IMG_0644.jpg

 

Is there a character on the very top here? I can't tell really. Do we know how many characters should there be?

IMG_0640.jpg

 

IMG_0641.jpg

 

IMG_0649.jpg

 

BEFORE:

 

IMG_0635.jpg

Posted

Hi Dave,

it would depend on the name the smith wanted to use -- family, school or place attribution, if he had an honorific, wanted to give a date made, etc.

 

is there anything written on the other side?

 

doug e

Posted
Hi Dave,

it would depend on the name the smith wanted to use -- family, school or place attribution, if he had an honorific, wanted to give a date made, etc.

 

is there anything written on the other side?

 

doug e

 

As far as I can tell, there is nothing on the other side of the tang...That side is also pretty evenly rusted, but I can't even see a hint of a "mei."

 

On second thought...let me work on the other side as well...maybe there is a mei under that rust...

Posted

That nakago is dangerously close (or already there?) to being overcleaned and damaged.

I really don't advise this method for any genuine Japanese sword, and have severe reservations about it being promoted here.

I think this is for experts, and knowing who made it is really secondary to keeping the nakago original and undamaged further.

 

Or as they say..." Don't try this at home"

 

Brian

 

Edit to add: Done as Barry explained, and over a long time, the technique I am sure works well. However the problem is that we cannot be there personally to supervise how hard, fast and vigorous someone does this..and therein lies the danger.

Posted

Brian

Plainly, I don't agree and I have a Tokubetsu Hozon katana that passed NBTHK with my cleaning "technique", for want of a better word.

 

Dave

Brian is right - you're going too far too fast and I'm seriously concerned you have the bit between your teeth. Rein in, stop and go no further for the present. I was very concerned to see the aggressiveness directed at the last two characters. Remember my watchwords SLOW; CAREFUL; MONTHS OF PATIENT, LOW KEY WORK.

 

Regards,

Barry Thomas.

 

PS - I'll post pictures of my Tadahiro nakago when I get my camera batteries recharged...

EDIT: I should have added that it took me three or four years to complete the cleaning of my Tadahiro tang. I knew the importance of being slow and careful to preserve it at its best after it had a bad experience in a garage for 30 years before I got it. Think about that Dave, 3 or 4 YEARS...

Posted

You may have cleaned enough. There is a strong resemblance to 3rd generation Tegarayama Ujishige. According to Fujishiro he worked ~1780 in Harima. The whole mei would likely be 'Banshu Tegarayama Fujiwara Ujishige'. We can see the 'Gara','Yama', 'Fuji', and 'Wara' pretty clearly. I can see the beginnings of 'Uji' under 'Wara'. As well, you can slightly see the 'Te' above the 'Gara', particularly in the last photo although its pretty rust-covered. 'Shige' is most definitely there, just rust-covered. I'm assuming 'Ban' and 'Shu' are above the 'Te', though that area is heavily rust-covered and I can see no traces.

 

My resource was Fujishiro, Shinto Hen, pg. 203. The mei in Fujishiro looked spot on for these characters. The yasurime and nakagojiri also match. The 1st and 2nd generation do not look as close from the examples I found. 4th generation Ujishige became Masashige, noted ShinShinTo smith. He signed Ujishige for awhile but his style is different, at least in his Masashige mei. I could not find a 4th generation Ujishige mei by him. Nakagojiri also differ 3rd to 4th generation. My money is on 3rd generation Ujishige.

 

Matt

Posted

I think the flash of the camera is making it look a lot shinier and "cleaner" than it really is. It is pretty much completely brown and rust colored still, but now you can see some more of the characters. I really just concentrated on the very loose flaky rust, which didn't take much work at all to crush off...I don't think any damage was done.

 

I don't plan on cleaning any more though...I don't think any of the other characters were preserved under all that pitting and rust anyway.

 

Mdiddy - Thanks for the info and translation so far! Can you provide me with an internet link to that research? Or is there a book I can buy to match up the markings?

 

Thanks all.

 

Edited to add: This looks VERY similar to my "mei" - http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/wakizashi/08660.html

Posted
You may have cleaned enough. There is a strong resemblance to 3rd generation Tegarayama Ujishige. According to Fujishiro he worked ~1780 in Harima. The whole mei would likely be 'Banshu Tegarayama Fujiwara Ujishige'. We can see the 'Gara','Yama', 'Fuji', and 'Wara' pretty clearly. I can see the beginnings of 'Uji' under 'Wara'. As well, you can slightly see the 'Te' above the 'Gara', particularly in the last photo although its pretty rust-covered. 'Shige' is most definitely there, just rust-covered. I'm assuming 'Ban' and 'Shu' are above the 'Te', though that area is heavily rust-covered and I can see no traces.

 

My resource was Fujishiro, Shinto Hen, pg. 203. The mei in Fujishiro looked spot on for these characters. The yasurime and nakagojiri also match. The 1st and 2nd generation do not look as close from the examples I found. 4th generation Ujishige became Masashige, noted ShinShinTo smith. He signed Ujishige for awhile but his style is different, at least in his Masashige mei. I could not find a 4th generation Ujishige mei by him. Nakagojiri also differ 3rd to 4th generation. My money is on 3rd generation Ujishige.

 

Matt

 

Anyone else have any thoughts on this translation?

 

So what do I have here? I am never going to sell it ofcourse...but is this a common sword? a rare one? worth anything now? worth anything if restored and polished?

 

Thanks again to everyone.

Posted

What is the length of the sword? Also, could you post a pic or two of the blade itself, particularly the tip, somewhere along the midsection, and any sizeable nicks?

 

Every genuine Nihonto is rare by virtue of being unique. Is this sword particularly valuable and/or can/should it be restored is a different question. We've made an educated guess on who made it, but that alone is not enough info to answer the restoration/value question and isn't even a guarantee that it is who actually made the sword.

This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...