WWII Japanese Sword & Nambu Pistol-History update Page 3!!

[DaveM4P99]

Hi All. I was referred to this site to get some more info about this sword/pistol combo I got recently from my grandfather...

 

 

 

There is a great story behind this as well…My grandfather, who was in the Air force, had a best friend who was the captain of a medical ship during WWII. Long story short, the medical ship was trailing a US battle group which ended up sinking a Japanese battleship. The medical ship ended up rescuing/capturing the Captain of that sunken Japanese battleship from the water, and he was forced to surrender his officer’s sword and sidearm to my Grandfather’s best friend, who ended up giving them both to my grandfather shortly after the war.

 

I believe they ended up sitting in a chest in a barn in Pennsylvania for decades…I think they also went through a small flood, and the sword obviously suffered a good amount of water damage…the handle was broken in half (I still have the other half), and it was all quite rusted…still VERY sharp though. You can however now read the symbols under the handle that were inscribed into the metal…telling what city in Japan the blade was made, the armory, the sword maker etc. The sword also has the Japanese royal symbol on it, the Chrysanthemum, and the handle still has a little of the small pearl decorations left on it.

 

I am sure you all need some more info and close up pictures of the katana and tang and handguard etc. to give me any real info...I will try to take more pics soon...but I figured I would get the ball rolling and see what I could find out.

 

Thanks for any help!

[John A Stuart]

Hi Dave, yes, it would be nice to see some more of this sword. The pistol is a Nambu type 14, as you probably know. If you can get the location and /or date that the battleship was sunk, it is an easy matter to determine the name of the ship and the captain at the time. It would be a significant event and well documented. John

[DaveM4P99]

Great thanks for the reply!

 

I will try to take more close ups...I am away on business for a couple weeks and won't be able to for a little while.

 

The Navy officer who acquired the sword and pistol during the war was named Dr. Melville. He has since passed away, but I will get his full name and rank as soon as possible...I think he was fairly high ranking since he was a Doctor, but I am not sure.

 

I will try to find out more regarding the sinking as well but that may be tricky...I am not sure if it was a large Japanese battleship, or a smaller vessel of some kind...and I don't know if it was actually the Captain of the Japanese ship who surrendered the weapons...It was more than likely just one of the Japanese officer's on board...but as of now I have no idea.

 

I can't wait to find out more. I am skeptical that it is worth much (not that I would sell it), but I would love to know more.

 

Anything you can tell me before I post more pics? Thanks!

 

Here is a slightly better exposed photo...you can just start to see the markings under the broken handle.

[Bazza]

Dave,

 

Lovely story. Do remove the handle and the "washers" and "collar" in front of the guard and take good high res images of, firstly, the complete tang from tip to just past the notches that define the blade proper, then, secondly, take some similarly good shots of the characters incised into the tang below the chrysanthemum. In this process please do NOT do anything to clean up the tang or the markings. This is VERY important.

 

To me the blade looks like a longish wakizashi of the Shinto era. It may be signed NOBUYOSHI depending on the form of the chrysanthemum.

 

Take care.

 

Regards,

Barry Thomas.

[DaveM4P99]

OK...through my own research, I think I have found a match...I studied each and every sword on this website (scroll down to see complete list of all Japanese swords):

http://www.quanonline.com/military/military_reference/Japanese/Japanese.html

 

WWII Japanese ARMY KATANA SWORD

http://www.quanonline.com/military/military_reference/Japanese/sword_20.php

Mine has the same blade, the exact same brass handguard, the same leather wrapped scabbard (except a rounded scabbard loop, not the square one shown on this one), the same brown cloth wrapping on the handle, and the same exact butt-cap on the bottom of the handle (with a lot of pearl decorations like mine, but their's has no loop going through the butt-cap's hole like mine does). Mine also has that "locking mechanism" like the one above which I just discovered.

 

here is a close up of mine:

 

here is a close up of the one listed on the expert website:

 

Looks like a match...Will get better pice of tang markings soon.

[sensei215]

Hi,

I read your last entry and I will have to agree with the earlier writer. We really can't tell much untill we see the nakago (tang ).

[DaveM4P99]

I am going to need instructions on how to dissasemble this thing without damaging it...Any links with detailed photos that I could follow?

 

I am pretty timid to take it apart myself...I see myself tugging and pulling at things that weren't supposed to be moved...

 

I have a couple weeks to figure it out though...

 

But I am almost positive it is one of the two swords I posted above. Will find out more when I get a chance to take it apart...

[DaveM4P99]

Oh and one last question for now...If it is indeed the sword I listed above, should I get it restored and the handle re-made or restored?

 

How much would it cost approximately, and WHO could do it right?

[IanB]

Dave, Like the other contributors to this thread, I agree that little more can be said about your sword until it has been dismantled and photographs of the tang and inscription posted. I can however offer a trivial comment about the pistol. It is the model type 14 with an aluminium magazine and the extended trigger-guard. This latter feature seems to have been introduced in the 1920's for use in Manchuria where the users had to wear gloves.

Ian Bottomley

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Dave,

Here's a link to a sword care and etiquette web site that will show how to remove the handle and reassemble after photos. It shows also what else you need to know about your sword, so read the whole thing.

http://www.nbthk-ab.org/Etiquette.htm

Because a large chunk of your handle is missing and also because there might be thick rust on the tang of the blade, the method shown might not work for you. If that's the case feel free to contact me by phone (you're in the States, right?) and I'll talk you through the process. 218-726-0395 central time.

Let me repeat, do not under any circumstances try to clean or fix ANYTHING; you'll only get yourself into trouble.

As for restoration: this will be expensive and the value of your sword may not warrant the expense. Let's wait till we know what you have before any decisions are made.

Cheers, Grey

[DaveM4P99]

Thanks for the replies so far everyone!

 

I will take detailed pictures of the tang and other components in a couple weeks when I am back home, and post them ASAP.

 

Just FYI, I do have the other half of the handguard...it is in slightly better shape than the rest of the handguard actually. I will take pics of that as well.

[loiner1965]

where on the sword does it show the royal emblem.

[DaveM4P99]

where on the sword does it show the royal emblem.

 

Sorry...I wasn' clear...I don't believe the actual blade or tang has the royal emblem on it...just the handguard has the chrysanthemum I believe...which I am learning is simply standard WWII issue fittings for a blade.

[loiner1965]

where on the sword does it show the royal emblem.

 

Sorry...I wasn' clear...I don't believe the actual blade or tang has the royal emblem on it...just the handguard has the chrysanthemum I believe...which I am learning is simply standard WWII issue fittings for a blade.

yes all gunto fuchi as the chrysanthemum on them....try and remove the tsuka and take some pics please....if the tang as loose rust on then leave it alone and ask for advice on here.

i know what to do but others who are more experience than i can advise you better

[DaveM4P99]

I won't be able to take it apart for pictures of the Tang for another 2 weeks unfortunately.

 

I will confirm that the Tang does have some loose rust on it. Should I not try to dissasemble it because of that? I can try to get a picture of the Tang markings without dissasembly, since the handle is mostly missing.

 

Any advice?

[loiner1965]

I won't be able to take it apart for pictures of the Tang for another 2 weeks unfortunately.

 

I will confirm that the Tang does have some loose rust on it. Should I not try to dissasemble it because of that? I can try to get a picture of the Tang markings without dissasembly, since the handle is mostly missing.

 

Any advice?

personally i would remove the tsuka and keep the piece as it may be rebonded to the other half but it will have to come off.

 

cannot see it being an issue removing but you may find the fuchi stuck fast as well as the habiki.

do not force these but i would use a little oil and carefully wiggle them loose.

[Brian]

I think the thing to remember is that the mounts are fairly irrellevant here. They are standard WW2 Shin-Gunto mounts, and in poor shape. In Japanese swords (apart from the militaria aspect) the blade is the important part, and this is what we need to look at and see if it is a mass produced WW2 one, or a better quality one, or perhaps an earlier blade remounted for the war.

 

Brian

[uwe]

As a shoot in the dark..............I bet, an remounted earlier blade. And to keep the dice rolling...........shinto piece

Uwe

[Stephen]

IMO

the tsuka would need a complet rebuild. We have contacts for that. One thing rust never sleeps..it (tsuka) needs to be removed and nakago oiled lightly, flaky rust tapped off best done by a pro but with some care can be done by you. Leaning to older blade taken to war.

[uwe]

Leaning to older blade taken to war.

.....based on nakago jiri and the shape of the blade

Uwe

[Stephen]

.....based on nakago jiri and the shape of the blade

yes

[outlier48]

Dave - call Grey and take him up on his offer to walk you through the process of removing the tsuka. Then please take pictures and post them on the board. We all recognize this will take time - no apologies needed. We are interested in more visual information. Once posted, you will receive plenty of further good advise on your sword.

 

Charlie Brashear

[DaveM4P99]

Wow thanks everyone!

 

And according to this website http://token.cz/external/meiboku/guide/form/jiri/index.htm...it looks most like a Iriyamagata Jiri..."Named after a particular shape of woodsman's axe. It is seen on some Yamato swords, those made in the Hokuriku region, and some blades produced during the Shintô period."

 

I am just trying to find out as much as I can without actually having access to the sword.

 

I will start this project in a couple weeks when I am back home...I can't wait to learn more about it...even if it isn't worth much, it's fun to investigate a piece of history like this...and thanks to everyone for the info so far.

 

And if the sword is indeed worth it, I will definitely have it refinished by a professional...I would definitely like some recommendations of who to hire for when the time comes.

[Bugyotsuji]

Just remember that a proper polish of the blade might cost more than 100 dollars an inch.

[DaveM4P99]

Hey everyone...so I got the katana dissasembled. It was pretty tricky because the handle was quite tight, but it came off with some wiggling.

 

The next problem is, the steel under the handle, which has the Japanese characters inscribed into it, is so rusted that you can only make out a couple characters, and really you can't see them either.

 

It is a thick rust that LOOKS flaky but it's not...I tried to scratch some off with my nail and it did nothing.

 

Should I try to remove the thick rust somehow? Is there a chemical I should try? Will it hurt the Japanese signature markings underneath?

 

Thanks all.

[machinist]

The rust on the tang portion is part of the blades history and is part of what folks look at to judge age, removing it it is a bad idea and some blades have had their value lessened by well meaning "improvements". I think there is a natural human desire to clean stuff off, but don't do it.

That said, post pics so the more knowledgeable can give you their opinions on what it is.

[DaveM4P99]

Oh I know better than to remove any rust...especially before I ask here. I was just thinking it would be necessary to remove the tang rust in order to see the Japanese characters. Here are some close up pics...There is an area of the tang that is fairly clean (either the handle somehow protected that area from moisture, or someone a long time ago removed some rust - which I doubt).

 

 

 

[Henry Wilson]

I think the sword is gendaito. The file marks are quite clear and the mei has a modern look to it. I don't think many gendaito were made around the war, though. Shin Shinto wakizashi??????

[DaveM4P99]

Thanks for the info!

 

If this means anything, I don't think there is a "mei" signature on the other side at all...so it is only signed on 1 side.

[blades87]

Hi, Dave.

 

I would go with Stephen's recommendation to lightly oil the tang in order to prevent it from rusting further. Mineral oil (hardware stores carry it) works best if you can't get choji oil. Protect the blade and tang from rusting any further by applying a light coat of oil . FYI, only handle the blade and the tang using a cloth, which will prevent rust from forming when you touch the steel with your bare hands.

 

-Put a couple of drops of mineral oil on both sides of the blade any gently wipe it down with a cotton cloth.

-Put a drop or two on the cloth and wipe the tang down. This will stop the rust from spreading and put a thin layer of oil on the steel.

-Do not use 3-in-1 or any standard oil because they can organic compounds that will cause rust.

 

Also, keep all the parts from the sword and store them in a ziplock bag for safe keeping. I just joined NMB about a month ago and there is an abundance of knowledge and help here on the board.

 

Cheers,

 

Toby