What's Going On Here? (A Sequel Eleven Years in the Making)

Alexander Again · September 24

Hello Again!

Eleven years ago I hopped on to this forum to ask for help with any info on tsuba #1 (you can find the thread here:

Once again I have returned for the sequel, to ask for assistance:

Imagine my surprise when I came across tsuba #2, almost identical to my own!

Of course I say almost, as they are not perfect twins. Differences are found, such as: the number of "dots" in the terminal buds of the plants, the direction of the dragonfly's tail, the scratches on the mantis' wings, etc. The studied eyes of this forum will be able to spot even more differences than I.

What's going on here? A few questions:

1. Is this somehow a fake copy? Seems genuine to me, but I am open to hearing it is some sort of modern copy (along with any telltale giveaways) if such is the case.

If both are genuine:

2. Is this a copy by another period artist (a student copying a teacher, another period artist copying a friend/peer, etc.), or are these most likely the work of the same individual?

3. Would there be any reason that a pair of tsuba like this would be commissioned/crafted together (similar, on purpose, as a pair), or is this simply an example of an artist making several similar pieces?

4. Is this a common occurrence, for detailed imagery on more than one tsuba to match? I could immediately imagine a craftsman cranking out several namako sukashi tsuba (海鼠透鐔) that all happen to resemble each other due to their minimalistic appearance, but how often do scenes of animals and botany line up almost perfectly like in these two examples? Is this a rare instance, or do many members of the forum have two detailed tsuba they could grab off their shelf and say "Yes, see these? This happens all the time."

I would be very grateful for any information you can point out on tsuba #2 (maybe even in regards to points or questions I have not thought to bring up!). I appreciate returning to such a knowledgeable group. Cheers.

Alexander Again · September 24

More photos of tsuba #2 (for photos of tsuba #1, simply see the original thread):

Alexander Again · September 24

Alexander Again · September 24

Alexander Again · September 24

Alexander Again · September 24

Tagging the legendary @Mantis dude as he may be interested in seeing this example ;-)

Spartancrest · September 25

Utsushi - is the word you might need. An "emulation" of a design - not a direct copy but a homage to a design that is well liked. There are thousands of utsushi getting about, but they often get mistaken for the same piece seen in the past - [Who can remember every detail?] I put some Mantis utsushi in my beginners book to compare to cast copies [yes it needs a rewrite]

Safe to give the ebay images of your second tsuba as it has already sold https://www.ebay.com/itm/276633048733

Alexander Again · September 25

Thank you Dale! The perfect example (three mantis tsuba, almost "exact" yet different). Pretty much sums up what's going on for me (although if others have still more to add I welcome the insight).

Yes, I purchased it a week and a half ago: while it's an amazing feeling for the two tsuba to be together, I ultimately am gifting #2 to a friend/student. I think it's a fitting gift as they have an interest in Japan, Mantis and have been working on utsushi (a word I just learned) with me as my student. Cheers!

Bazza · September 25

Gents, I attach the following picture because I have it!! This lovely tsuba was on a mate's Kanesada katana and offers a different perspective of the same theme to Alexander's above. Same school, I wonder??

Bests,

BaZZa.

Spartancrest · September 25

Alexander, I just noticed the tagane-ato [punch marks around the nakago-ana]. The ones on your example are very, very similar to the old examples I have with the Mantis design. I can't help thinking the same smith used the same tools on all five pieces. I include the three images of the nakago-ana with the punch marks - a series of three dot punches each side, top and bottom. [Ignore the rough outlines of the nakago-ana, that was done manually to give all three images the same background colour] Image is larger and enhanced from the book page example above.

Hey Barry is there a Dragonfly on the ura of yours? Nice piece! [that is an understatement!]

ROKUJURO · September 25

I do not believe in the UTSUSHI idea in most cases. TSUBA workshops often had standard designs which were copied by the employees over and over again, so it is very likely that close examples appear on the market. Small variations are evident as they did not strive for exact copies.

Bazza · September 25

Dale asked:

> Hey Barry is there a Dragonfly on the ura of yours? Nice piece! [that is an understatement!]

Dale, I took that photo in 2009 and there is no photo of the back in my files. A dim recollection is that the back of the tsuba just had foliage and no dragon that I can recall. The sword has moved on and if I see it again I'll look at the back. Sorry.

BaZZa.

Alexander Again · September 25

Barry: Awesome example, thanks for sharing! Definitely some notable similarities.

Dale: Good eye. I remember there was discussion over what particular school my tsuba was in the original thread: if these three mantis tsuba in your book are of a similar school/timeframe it certainly explains the punch mark resemblance you noticed. Interesting if all five could be made by the same person.

9 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

I do not believe in the UTSUSHI idea in most cases. TSUBA workshops often had standard designs which were copied by the employees over and over again, so it is very likely that close examples appear on the market. Small variations are evident as they did not strive for exact copies.

Jean: I definitely agree with the scenario you described. It most likely happened (for any number of reasons; an artist getting into a groove/perfecting or playing with a design, an artist noticing what sold well, etc.)

ROKUJURO · September 25

Alexander,

TSUBA makers (and many other sword related workers) were not all considered artists. Instead, most were seen (and saw themselves) as craftsmen, not trying to create new designs or invent new techniques. Copying was common and not seen as boring - Japanese have a different mindset as far as this is concerned.

Alexander Again · September 25

Right. Artist by modern definition (people who created for a living) but thought of differently by the society of their time. People like composers and painters in the west were once given similar treatment (i.e. "you are a craftsman supplying your craft to your patron"); lots of copying there as well.

Ian B3HR2UH · September 25

Hi Barry , would you aspire to have that " lovely " tsuba in your collection ? I think it is pretty mediocre and that we should be trying to educate people that this sort of stuff is just that.

Regards Ian

Mantis dude · September 26

Hi all,

Yes, I have found many similar designs- most I would attribute to aizu shoami (or just shoami school). although, I have seen many examples from other schools that were more just copies from a design book. I agree with Ian that they are mediocre. I try and focus on other designs now but I do have some with similar look and feel. I also have tsuba that are the same design but each plate is a different shape. I do find it interesting to see them in a group together. Since these aren't great pieces I would be happy to keep them for you guys. Remember to send me your tired, your lonely mantis tosogou. For that matter, I'll take the in shape and happy pieces as well.

All the best.

Ken

Mantis dude · September 26

Not limited to tsuba either

Spartancrest · September 27

2 JAPANESE IRON AND MIXED METAL TSUBA https://www.invaluab...582192e47cefc6a573fb

Alexander Again · September 27

Wow, even more examples. You guys truly are the tsuba detectives. Thanks to all. I will have to stop by the third decade for my next tsuba inquiry. Cheers.