Alexander Again Posted September 24 Report Share Posted September 24 Hello Again! Eleven years ago I hopped on to this forum to ask for help with any info on tsuba #1 (you can find the thread here: Once again I have returned for the sequel, to ask for assistance: Imagine my surprise when I came across tsuba #2, almost identical to my own! Of course I say almost, as they are not perfect twins. Differences are found, such as: the number of "dots" in the terminal buds of the plants, the direction of the dragonfly's tail, the scratches on the mantis' wings, etc. The studied eyes of this forum will be able to spot even more differences than I. What's going on here? A few questions: 1. Is this somehow a fake copy? Seems genuine to me, but I am open to hearing it is some sort of modern copy (along with any telltale giveaways) if such is the case. If both are genuine: 2. Is this a copy by another period artist (a student copying a teacher, another period artist copying a friend/peer, etc.), or are these most likely the work of the same individual? 3. Would there be any reason that a pair of tsuba like this would be commissioned/crafted together (similar, on purpose, as a pair), or is this simply an example of an artist making several similar pieces? 4. Is this a common occurrence, for detailed imagery on more than one tsuba to match? I could immediately imagine a craftsman cranking out several namako sukashi tsuba (海鼠透鐔) that all happen to resemble each other due to their minimalistic appearance, but how often do scenes of animals and botany line up almost perfectly like in these two examples? Is this a rare instance, or do many members of the forum have two detailed tsuba they could grab off their shelf and say "Yes, see these? This happens all the time." I would be very grateful for any information you can point out on tsuba #2 (maybe even in regards to points or questions I have not thought to bring up!). I appreciate returning to such a knowledgeable group. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Again Posted September 24 Author Report Share Posted September 24 More photos of tsuba #2 (for photos of tsuba #1, simply see the original thread): Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Again Posted September 24 Author Report Share Posted September 24 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Again Posted September 24 Author Report Share Posted September 24 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Again Posted September 24 Author Report Share Posted September 24 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Again Posted September 24 Author Report Share Posted September 24 Tagging the legendary @Mantis dude as he may be interested in seeing this example 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartancrest Posted September 25 Report Share Posted September 25 Utsushi - is the word you might need. An "emulation" of a design - not a direct copy but a homage to a design that is well liked. There are thousands of utsushi getting about, but they often get mistaken for the same piece seen in the past - [Who can remember every detail?] I put some Mantis utsushi in my beginners book to compare to cast copies [yes it needs a rewrite] Safe to give the ebay images of your second tsuba as it has already sold https://www.ebay.com/itm/276633048733 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Again Posted September 25 Author Report Share Posted September 25 Thank you Dale! The perfect example (three mantis tsuba, almost "exact" yet different). Pretty much sums up what's going on for me (although if others have still more to add I welcome the insight). Yes, I purchased it a week and a half ago: while it's an amazing feeling for the two tsuba to be together, I ultimately am gifting #2 to a friend/student. I think it's a fitting gift as they have an interest in Japan, Mantis and have been working on utsushi (a word I just learned) with me as my student. Cheers! 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted September 25 Report Share Posted September 25 Gents, I attach the following picture because I have it!! This lovely tsuba was on a mate's Kanesada katana and offers a different perspective of the same theme to Alexander's above. Same school, I wonder?? Bests, BaZZa. 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartancrest Posted September 25 Report Share Posted September 25 Alexander, I just noticed the tagane-ato [punch marks around the nakago-ana]. The ones on your example are very, very similar to the old examples I have with the Mantis design. I can't help thinking the same smith used the same tools on all five pieces. I include the three images of the nakago-ana with the punch marks - a series of three dot punches each side, top and bottom. [Ignore the rough outlines of the nakago-ana, that was done manually to give all three images the same background colour] Image is larger and enhanced from the book page example above. Hey Barry is there a Dragonfly on the ura of yours? Nice piece! [that is an understatement!] 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROKUJURO Posted September 25 Report Share Posted September 25 I do not believe in the UTSUSHI idea in most cases. TSUBA workshops often had standard designs which were copied by the employees over and over again, so it is very likely that close examples appear on the market. Small variations are evident as they did not strive for exact copies. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted September 25 Report Share Posted September 25 Dale asked: > Hey Barry is there a Dragonfly on the ura of yours? Nice piece! [that is an understatement!] Dale, I took that photo in 2009 and there is no photo of the back in my files. A dim recollection is that the back of the tsuba just had foliage and no dragon that I can recall. The sword has moved on and if I see it again I'll look at the back. Sorry. BaZZa. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Again Posted September 25 Author Report Share Posted September 25 Barry: Awesome example, thanks for sharing! Definitely some notable similarities. Dale: Good eye. I remember there was discussion over what particular school my tsuba was in the original thread: if these three mantis tsuba in your book are of a similar school/timeframe it certainly explains the punch mark resemblance you noticed. Interesting if all five could be made by the same person. 9 hours ago, ROKUJURO said: I do not believe in the UTSUSHI idea in most cases. TSUBA workshops often had standard designs which were copied by the employees over and over again, so it is very likely that close examples appear on the market. Small variations are evident as they did not strive for exact copies. Jean: I definitely agree with the scenario you described. It most likely happened (for any number of reasons; an artist getting into a groove/perfecting or playing with a design, an artist noticing what sold well, etc.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROKUJURO Posted September 25 Report Share Posted September 25 Alexander, TSUBA makers (and many other sword related workers) were not all considered artists. Instead, most were seen (and saw themselves) as craftsmen, not trying to create new designs or invent new techniques. Copying was common and not seen as boring - Japanese have a different mindset as far as this is concerned. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Again Posted September 25 Author Report Share Posted September 25 Right. Artist by modern definition (people who created for a living) but thought of differently by the society of their time. People like composers and painters in the west were once given similar treatment (i.e. "you are a craftsman supplying your craft to your patron"); lots of copying there as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian B3HR2UH Posted September 25 Report Share Posted September 25 Hi Barry , would you aspire to have that " lovely " tsuba in your collection ? I think it is pretty mediocre and that we should be trying to educate people that this sort of stuff is just that. Regards Ian 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis dude Posted September 26 Report Share Posted September 26 Hi all, Yes, I have found many similar designs- most I would attribute to aizu shoami (or just shoami school). although, I have seen many examples from other schools that were more just copies from a design book. I agree with Ian that they are mediocre. I try and focus on other designs now but I do have some with similar look and feel. I also have tsuba that are the same design but each plate is a different shape. I do find it interesting to see them in a group together. Since these aren't great pieces I would be happy to keep them for you guys. Remember to send me your tired, your lonely mantis tosogou. For that matter, I'll take the in shape and happy pieces as well. All the best. Ken 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis dude Posted September 26 Report Share Posted September 26 Not limited to tsuba either 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartancrest Posted September 27 Report Share Posted September 27 https://www.invaluab...582192e47cefc6a573fb 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Again Posted September 27 Author Report Share Posted September 27 Wow, even more examples. You guys truly are the tsuba detectives. Thanks to all. I will have to stop by the third decade for my next tsuba inquiry. Cheers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1kinko Posted September 27 Report Share Posted September 27 Here's a different mantis. 6 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis dude Posted September 27 Report Share Posted September 27 1st off- I am away so I can't check but is the " mantis dude" the only one that doesn't have one of those?!! 2nd I don't recall seeing a similar mantis design like the Last one posted. Any details about it? School etc? Awesome taste gentlemen & ladies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1kinko Posted September 27 Report Share Posted September 27 Hallam School. Original 2019, shibuichi on copper. 3 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis dude Posted September 28 Report Share Posted September 28 13 hours ago, 1kinko said: Hallam School. Original 2019, shibuichi on copper. Special piece for sure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1kinko Posted September 28 Report Share Posted September 28 Other side 3 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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