Suriage or O-suriage on "shinto" (or later) sword.

[sc72]

I would like to ask a question to those who know more than me about Japanese swords.

I understood the concept of the sword born "mumei" and of "suriage" and "o-suriage". The shortening was used to shorten swords that had become too long for the fighting style on foot and no longer on horseback and therefore (if I am not mistaken) it is seen on "tachi" type swords or on "old swords" ("koto").

What I would like to know is what sense a "suriage" or "o-suriage" makes on new ("shinto") or later swords. Could there have been and if so why? To perhaps adapt the sword to the smaller stature of a new samurai owner? Or for a breakage (but then only if the blade was damaged not at the tip but at the back).

Please explain to me, I would like to know how to relate to a "Shinto" / "mumei" sword with "suriage", they are not valid as they are considered if it is with "Hozon" certificate?

[Jacques D.]

Quickly, suriage is when part of the nakago is removed, O-suriage is when the whole nakago is.

[Geraint]

Dear Ste.

 

To add a little to that Nakahara lists two reasons in 'Facts and Fundamentals'; first that Daimyo conforming to rules laid down about the wearing of daisho yet still wanting to be known as carrying a great blade would shorten earlier masterpieces for such use, second that the Tokugawa, seeking to reward someone, took to giving swords instead of land and running out of great names shortened lesser swords and had them attributed to a great smith by the Honami.  A form of social agreement enters into this, something along the lines of, 'Your actions deserve a Norishige but I don't have one so this shortened Uda tachi with a Honami attribution will do instead.' Followed by, 'Thank you for recognising the magnitude of my service with this magnificent sword.'

 

I have also often heard swords described as, 'the top of an old tachi.'  The suggestion here is that at some point an old sword was damaged and rather than waste it someone turned it into a wakizashi.  In most cases this applies to a rather skinny blade which has seen a lot of polishes and is inelegantly shortened.

 

I think the change from mounted to dismounted fighting has more to do with the sugata of the sword as made, though I also think that the shorter samurai argument holds water.  The last point I would make is that deliberate fakes abound and some smiths were known to work in a style so close to a great but early smith that it was quite the thing to take one of their swords and either shorten it or remove the mei to pass it off as the work of the earlier smith.

 

As to the Shinto/Shinshinto question collectors seem to work to the rule that these swords are relatively plentiful so if you want a Tadatsuna katana it is possible to find one with an untouched nakago so that you can appreciate the sword in its original form, why would you settle for osuriage and lose the original sugata and nakago complete with mei?  Because of this a mumei Shinto begs the question as to why it was not signed, and there are reasons offered for this happening, However a mumei Shinto which might be papered to a certain smith would be less attractive than a signed example also papered. 

 

Forgive the lengthy ramble and I hope I have answered some of your questions.  Others will add to this perhaps.

 

All the best.

[Franco D]

A few quick thoughts.

 

We need to keep in mind that form follows function. As time passed, fighting styles changed and with it the shape of swords either through manufacture or modification. Following this point, we need to be aware that throughout time the shape of earlier swords were being copied, but that sometimes what was being copied were modified swords. This holds especially true when entering into the Edo period. It is one reason we see familiarities in Shinto swords like that of shortened nambokucho or other earlier period swords. For example, look how often we see what is thought to be a naginata naoshi only to find upon closer examination, "nope, it's simply a Shinto period shobu zukuri wakizashi."

The study of the origin of shape is essential for a complete understanding of nihonto.

Edited September 23 by Franco D
clarification

[sc72]

First: thanks to all 

 

Yes I understand. But I was wondering this: if a "shinto" sword (or later "shinshinto") was born already short (compared to a long old sword or a "tachi") why do a suriage on it? I've seen things like this with Hozon paper

[sc72]

How should modern Shinto swords be evaluated but with suriage and no more mei but only "Attributed" by the Hozon to someone?

[Franco D]

26 minutes ago, sc72 said:

But I was wondering this: if a "shinto" sword (or later "shinshinto") was born already short (compared to a long old sword or a "tachi") why do a suriage on it? I've seen things like this with Hozon paper

 

 Customizing to the user's needs/desires/koshirae. 

 

22 minutes ago, sc72 said:

How should modern Shinto swords be evaluated but with suriage and no more mei but only "Attributed" by the Hozon to someone?

 

https://nihontocraft...hinsa_Standards.html

 

Shinto swords should be ubu, have no flaws, and be signed. Anything other would explain why it only received Hozon level origami, aside from quality. 

[Bugyotsuji]

If it bothers you, do not buy it. Was it done to deceive??? If not, why? A rabbit warren.

 

Many people will offer their opinions on the reasons for Shinto or Shin-Shinto shortening, but such a blade will never satisfy you more and more. Probably less and less, until you are bored or disgusted, unless the work is so stunning that the critics are all blown away like flies.

[sc72]

3 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

Quickly, suriage is when part of the nakago is removed, O-suriage is when the whole nakago is.

[sc72]

thank you very much to all

[Kanenaga]

Perhaps good to mention that the condition of the nakago is important for the monetary evaluation of a shinto or newer sword. Suriage (or machi-okuri, or mumei-ness) significantly diminishes the value.

[sc72]

14 hours ago, Kanenaga said:

Perhaps good to mention that the condition of the nakago is important for the monetary evaluation of a shinto or newer sword. Suriage (or machi-okuri, or mumei-ness) significantly diminishes the value.

OK