Emil Posted September 11 Report Share Posted September 11 I finally have som better pictures of my Showa-to. I've tried my best to look at references pictures but I can't come to any conclusion. Anyone out there who can tell me if it's oil quenched? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John C Posted September 11 Report Share Posted September 11 Since you have the sword in hand, here is a chart to help you out. The key would be to look for activity in the hamon. The more activity, the more likely it is water quenched. John C 2 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emil Posted September 11 Author Report Share Posted September 11 5 minutes ago, John C said: Since you have the sword in hand Unfortunately, I don't at the moment, not for another 7 weeks at least. It's with my brother who can't be of any help in this. But really helpful illustration, I'll save that one, thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John C Posted September 11 Report Share Posted September 11 6 minutes ago, Emilll said: helpful illustration Here is a better example of martensite crystals (nie) formed with water quenching. John C. 2 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PNSSHOGUN Posted September 12 Report Share Posted September 12 The Nakago and Mei can often be quite telling for Showa-To. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emil Posted September 12 Author Report Share Posted September 12 5 minutes ago, PNSSHOGUN said: The Nakago and Mei can often be quite telling for Showa-To. Here's a picture of the nakago Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghoul Posted September 12 Report Share Posted September 12 It can be hard to say as lighting and the state of the polish can make a big difference to pics, but I'm leaning towards water quenched? I like it either way though! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emil Posted September 12 Author Report Share Posted September 12 2 hours ago, Ghoul said: It can be hard to say as lighting and the state of the polish can make a big difference to pics, but I'm leaning towards water quenched? I like it either way though! You're probably the fourth person saying this. Maybe it's just the pictures. Since I bought it as a Showa-to I was certain people here would say it's a school book example of an oil quenched blade. But so far nobody has said that. Makes me wonder if I need to challange the assumption of it being a Showa-to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emil Posted September 12 Author Report Share Posted September 12 What about these spots right here? Does it say anything? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROKUJURO Posted September 12 Report Share Posted September 12 None of the photos allows me to be sure. I also have a tendency to say 'water quenched', but there is a slim chance the polisher did a good job with HADORI concealing the HAMON. I cannot see NIE or NIOI clearly, so it remains open in my opinion. Concerning photos, to be helpful, they should be: - precisely focused and not blurry - made with a dark, non reflective background for good contrast - made with light from the side (may not apply for HAMON photos) - made from directly above (not at an angle) - made with correct orientation (tip-upwards, especially NAKAGO photos) - without HABAKI but showing the MACHI and NAKAGO JIRI - made in high resolution to see details - showing details of the sword like BOSHI, HAMACHI, HAMON, HADA, NAKAGO JIRI etc. - presented as cut-outs so very little background is shown If you cannot supply good photos (.....these photos are all I have from the dealer..../ I do not have a good camera but only an old mobile phone.... ), DO NOT POST THEM. They will not be helpful. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emil Posted September 12 Author Report Share Posted September 12 29 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said: None of the photos allows be to be sure Thanks for the pointers, I will save those and take better photos when I have the katana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeLuucas Posted September 12 Report Share Posted September 12 I've never seen an oil quenched Showa-to with Shirasaya + oshigata. I'm sure they are out there, I just haven not seen such a nice display for a showato. My guess is water quenched, but I will look forward to more photographs! The Oshigata appears to show more hamon activity, but even that is hard to see and blurry. I will be looking forward to more pictures! My beginner two cents, Cheers, -Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emil Posted September 12 Author Report Share Posted September 12 2 hours ago, GeorgeLuucas said: I've never seen an oil quenched Showa-to with Shirasaya + oshigata. I'm sure they are out there, I just haven not seen such a nice display for a showato. I know it's kinda odd, right? These accessories take time and money to make Not only that, it came with a full lenght tsunagi and a pristine uchigatana koshirae and what appears to be a decent polish. I guess I paid for it all, since the price was 350,000 JPY. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's quite high for a Showa-to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeLuucas Posted September 13 Report Share Posted September 13 I was hoping someone else would chime in Typically people are a bit reluctant to speak about prices on here. Which is understandable because nobody want's to influence a transaction based on incomplete info (photos, description, etc.). The price doesn't raise any red flags for me. Looks like a nice package. My novice opinion. -Sam Keep us posted with more photos when you're able! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emil Posted September 13 Author Report Share Posted September 13 36 minutes ago, GeorgeLuucas said: I was hoping someone else would chime in Typically people are a bit reluctant to speak about prices on here. Which is understandable because nobody want's to influence a transaction based on incomplete info (photos, description, etc.). The price doesn't raise any red flags for me. Looks like a nice package. My novice opinion. -Sam Keep us posted with more photos when you're able! I feel like I've overlooked an unspoken understanding, thanks for letting me know 👍 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emil Posted Thursday at 10:07 PM Author Report Share Posted Thursday at 10:07 PM After a very long wait, I'm finally able to take my own photos of the sword. I tried to vary the light conditions to capture the hamon's different appearances. I hope these are better to determine if the blade is oil or water quenched? @ROKUJURO are any of these photos good enough? For a Showato, I believe it has a pretty well grained hada and in the sellers own "appraisal" document it's labelled as Nie deki. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonely panet Posted Thursday at 10:38 PM Report Share Posted Thursday at 10:38 PM On 9/13/2024 at 3:25 AM, GeorgeLuucas said: I've never seen an oil quenched Showa-to with Shirasaya + oshigata. I'm sure they are out there, I just haven not seen such a nice display for a showato. My guess is water quenched, but I will look forward to more photographs! The Oshigata appears to show more hamon activity, but even that is hard to see and blurry. I will be looking forward to more pictures! My beginner two cents, Cheers, -Sam Check aoi arts page. Theres stuff similar sell there. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emil Posted Friday at 09:33 AM Author Report Share Posted Friday at 09:33 AM On 9/11/2024 at 9:03 PM, John C said: Since you have the sword in hand, here is a chart to help you out. The key would be to look for activity in the hamon. The more activity, the more likely it is water quenched. John C Now that I do have the sword in hand, I tried to look at these. I believe I can see the martensite crystals but in some lighting conditions (see my photos) it also looks like a shadow. I'm not confident enough to draw any conclusions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROKUJURO Posted Friday at 10:20 AM Report Share Posted Friday at 10:20 AM Emil, the first 2 photos are good enough and the last one. A dark background would always be good for contrast. I think I see a kind of NIE and also some HADA in places but to me they look different, compared with traditionally made blades. Generally, it looks like an attractive blade, but I cannot say with confidence how it was made. It might well be a mix of traditional materials and techniques with modern ones. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilles Posted Friday at 10:56 AM Report Share Posted Friday at 10:56 AM It's quite a conundrum, the hamon tells that it is oil quenched but the hada is visible. I agree with Jean, it seems to be a mix of traditional and modern techniques and materials but it is just my opinion. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John C Posted Friday at 01:48 PM Report Share Posted Friday at 01:48 PM 4 hours ago, Emil said: I'm not confident enough to draw any conclusions It's definitely a tough one. The temperature of the blade during quench can affect the size and amount of nie, but I'm not seeing enough to point one direction or the other. If I were to lean in one direction, I think the lack of definition points toward oil quench. John C. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emil Posted Friday at 04:44 PM Author Report Share Posted Friday at 04:44 PM 6 hours ago, ROKUJURO said: It might well be a mix of traditional materials and techniques with modern ones. Here's where my prehaps biased speculation comes into the picture. Because the blade obviously has some kind of hada, however not necessarily what you'd expect from tamahagane it points to some of the steels that were known to produce a similar pattern, like puddled Swedish railway steel 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROKUJURO Posted Friday at 06:57 PM Report Share Posted Friday at 06:57 PM Emil, that would be a good explanation! Difficult to read with my old eyes, but very interesting! As I have rail steel from these times (made pre 1860), I might make some tests as soon as I have the time (my power-hammer is not working right now so it will take a while). If I can get results that confirm one side or the other, I will post them here. Generally, all local steels in Japan (= TAMAHAGANE) had to be processed by the smith to get predictable properties in the finished item, be that a sword-blade or a garden-tool. Raw TAMAHAGANE is not a pure and easy-to-use high-end steel, on the contrary. It is pure in the sense of alloying elements - only small amounts in form of impurities are dissolved in the matrix. But the carbon and silica contents vary considerably, so a lot of work was (and is) required to homogenize it by forging, folding and fire-welding. When the Japanese had the opportunity to put their hands on re-purposed steel ( = rails, see also https://www-fedsteel...-in-railway-tracks/? ) with acceptable properties, they immediately saw the advantages because much less work was needed to use it for sword making. But because of its high manganese content, this rail-steel needed another thermal treatment, considerably differing from the traditional way. Steel with a manganese content has some serious advantages for rail-making, compared to pure (= processed or refined) carbon steel. The 'in-hardening' and 'through-hardening' of the metal are increased, and additionally, it becomes harder in use (= work-hardening). But depending on the alloy, water-quenching can be too harsh for it, possibly increasing the risk of cracks. As I do not know if the Japanese smiths of the late 19th and early 20th century used European rail-steel as it was or if they processed it in an OROSHIGANE furnace to influence the alloy proportions, we can only speculate about their quenching process, so the initial question of this thread may remain unanswered. These facts may well have to do with your blade, Emil, so unless you insist to cut it up to make some analyses ( ), we are not sure how it was made. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emil Posted Saturday at 07:31 AM Author Report Share Posted Saturday at 07:31 AM 14 hours ago, ROKUJURO said: As I have rail steel from these times (made pre 1860), I might make some tests as soon as I have the time (my power-hammer is not working right now so it will take a while). If I can get results that confirm one side or the other, I will post them here. That sounds fantastic Jean, I hope you can do it! I'm really looking forward to see if you can get any results. If your railway steel is pre 1860, it's a very high chance that it's puddled steel. The bessemer technique was invented 1856 and gained popularity during the 1860s. As I understand it, the first railroads were laid with puddled steel in Japan. However, very early on they switched to the more advantageous bessemer steel. For the best Showa-to swords, only puddled steel would have been used as bessemer steel were too homogeneous to produce any hada. It's claimed that the best showato made from railway steel were commonly water quenched, which produced the finest tier of Showato, not easily distinguished from Gendaito, hence the nickname "Mill-steel gendaito" this even resulted in a problem of having wartime smiths selling these showato as traditional gendaito at higher prices, some smiths were actually jailed for it. And as I understand it, this later led to the introduction of showato stamps. I'm not entirely sure if my blade falls into that category of top tier showato or not. Since the blade lenght of my sword is 69 cm / 27.2 inches it's already a strong indicator that this was a special ordered Showa-to. And even for collectors it might not be the easiest sword to distinguish from a traditionally made one. However, the concensus in this thread seems to be that my sword is probably oil quenched. But I'm guessing that since the wartime production wasn't always an exact science it's very possible that a special ordered showato could be produced with the "finer" puddled railway steel and still be oil quenched. Prehaps the source claiming that railway steel blades were water quenched is not entirely accurate or it just wasn't always the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emil Posted Saturday at 07:37 AM Author Report Share Posted Saturday at 07:37 AM 12 hours ago, ROKUJURO said: These facts may well have to do with your blade, Emil, so unless you insist to cut it up to make some analyses ( ), we are not sure how it was made. It has actually crossed my mind, if it would be possible to shave of a tiny part of the tang for the purpose of historical analysis, I wouldn't be opossed to it. The problem is I have no idea who or where to turn to for metal analysis. It's not a common service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emil Posted Saturday at 12:11 PM Author Report Share Posted Saturday at 12:11 PM Here are some close ups of the hada and hamon that I managed to take with a 30x and 60x magnifier along with some photos of the blade in direct sunlight @John C @Gilles 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROKUJURO Posted Saturday at 02:07 PM Report Share Posted Saturday at 02:07 PM Very good and interesting photos! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John C Posted Saturday at 02:13 PM Report Share Posted Saturday at 02:13 PM Emil: I'm not seeing a lot of activity in the hamon. Could it be discrete nioi or dense konie? Possibly, just not sure. Here is a good explanation for why you may not be seeing much. It speaks about blade and steel quality. John C 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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