Torio Hiromasa with removed stamp

[RobCarter3]

I have an opportunity to buy this sword signed Yoshū Hōjō-jū Hiromasa saku.  Purportedly it's dated spring 1945 but I don't have any pictures of that side of the nakago.  There are two matsuyama "YAMA" stamps on the spine of the nakago. 

 

When I was looking at the pictures on my phone, I thought it looked pretty good, other than a modern-looking brass habaki which I took as a sign that the koshirae is put together.

 

Now that I've had a chance to look at the pictures on my computer, I'm deeply disturbed by what appears to be a mostly removed SHO stamp above the mei.  What do you guys think? 

 

 

Edited September 11 by RobCarter3

[RobCarter3]

[Kiipu]

The location you marked is usually where the "Star" stamp was located.  If the sword came via Japan in the postwar years, the "Star" stamp could have been removed, so as to register the sword with the authorities.  Wartime stamps were frowned upon, including the "Star" stamp.

[Brian]

Agree. That was likely a star stamp, and this looks like a nice Gendaito.

[RobCarter3]

Glad I posted instead of passing.  I'll try to get some additional pics of both sides of the nakago from the seller.  Any chance the brass habaki is wartime original?

[Bruce Pennington]

That's a really nice looking gunto!  Assuming the seller has the date correctly, that's the latest date I have for the Yama stamp, and the latest date I have of a Hiromasa blade.

 

I can clearly see the star.  And I see no reason to doubt the originality of the habaki.  Springs of '45 is quite late in the war.  Many parts were being made with lower quality standards by that time.

 

@mecox

[John C]

This area appears to have some activity along the hamon, which would not be typical if it were a showa-to.

 

John C.

[RobCarter3]

Seller confirmed that the sword came from Japan, so the removed star stamp theory holds water and would explain everything else that we're seeing. 

 

I edited the thread title to be less provocative.

[Kiipu]

5 hours ago, RobCarter3 said:

I'm deeply disturbed by what appears to be a mostly removed SHO stamp above the mei.

 

Hiromasa 博正 was from Ehime Prefecture 愛媛県.  The 昭 stamp was only used in Gifu Prefecture.  So it would be impossible for it to be that stamp.

 

For more information about Hiromasa and Ehime Prefecture, I would suggest taking a look at the monograph below.

Showa Period Swordsmiths of Ehime Prefecture

[RobCarter3]

Closed the deal and the Hiromasa will be coming home with me.  Thank you everyone for the information and advice.  I was about to let this one go!

[mecox]

Hiromasa was a prolific  and capable smith and also worked closely with Kokura arsenal.  The erased stamp would have been a star as @Kiipu noted.  A late war date of 1945 is most likely and is indicated by the 2 x "yama"  山 stamps on nakago mune.  This suggests blade may have been submitted and made at Matsuyama branch.   There is some discussion of this in paper on Fukuoka/Kokura smiths in Downloads:

 

[Kiipu]

Below is a link to an early "Star" stamp from the same smith.  This particular blade is dated October 1942.  Note the different mix of inspection stamps.  Mal's tome mentioned above goes into this in more detail.

Can anyone translate this?

[RobCarter3]

22 minutes ago, Kiipu said:

Hiromasa 博正 was from Ehime Prefecture 愛媛県.  The 昭 stamp was only used in Gifu Prefecture.  So it would be impossible for it to be that stamp.

 

I know that a gendaito by an Ehime smith would never have a Seki/Gifu commercial association stamp.  I was about to buy the sword and then noticed a removed stamp and alarm bells started going off that this was a komonjo-type special where someone had applied a spurious Hiromasa mei to a Seki showato, despite all the other indications that the mei looked right, "yama" stamps check out, hamon is in Hiromasa's characteristic Bizen style choji-midare, blade is obviously water quenched, etc. 

 

You and the others are obviously correct that it's a removed star stamp.  Very glad I came here and sought opinions from more experienced eyes. 

[Kiipu]

The lineage chart of Hiromasa courtesy of @Stephen.

Yoshū Hōjō-jū Hiromasa katana in shingunto koshirae

[Kiipu]

On 9/11/2024 at 9:40 AM, RobCarter3 said:

Purportedly it's dated spring 1945 but I don't have any pictures of that side of the nakago.

 

When the dust settles, please post a picture of this side of the tang.  Also, can you see the outline of the removed stamp or is it completely obliterated?

[RobCarter3]

@Kiipu I should have the sword in hand tomorrow or Thursday and l’ll update with the requested pictures. 

[Kiipu]

In the meantime, take a look at this Hiromasa 博正.  I wonder if this is another example of a stamp removal?  Thoughts anyone?

豫州北條住博正作 昭和十八年二月日

[John C]

1 hour ago, Kiipu said:

Thoughts anyone?

Beautiful gendaito. But you could be right. This looks like it may have been a seki stamp.

 

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

I see what you are seeing, John, but in my experience, the large Seki stamp is always (I know - never say never nor always!) on the other side of the shinogi line, like this:

 

I think there is a removed star on the other side:

[cisco-san]

does not look like a Seki stamp...

[RobCarter3]

On 9/17/2024 at 1:36 PM, Kiipu said:

 

When the dust settles, please post a picture of this side of the tang.  Also, can you see the outline of the removed stamp or is it completely obliterated?

 

The sword is finally in hand after USPS misplaced it for 5 days.  I cannot see the outline of the stamp -- it was thoroughly removed. 

 

 

[RobCarter3]

[Kiipu]

昭和廿年仲春日　A day in mid-spring 1945.

？　豫州北條住博正作　Yoshū Hōjō-jū Hiromasa saku [? Possible "Star" stamp peened out.]

Note the variant form of 住 used.

[Bruce Pennington]

A star seems the most likely.  I only have 4 other HIromasa with various stamps on file and 3 of them are star stamped.  The other does not.  The only other stamp that would be a primary suspect on that spot, in 1945, is the Gifu stamp, but with Hiromasa being from Ehime, that seems pretty unlikely.  So, I've filed it as a likely star stamp blade.