RobCarter3 Posted September 11 Report Share Posted September 11 (edited) I have an opportunity to buy this sword signed Yoshū Hōjō-jū Hiromasa saku. Purportedly it's dated spring 1945 but I don't have any pictures of that side of the nakago. There are two matsuyama "YAMA" stamps on the spine of the nakago. When I was looking at the pictures on my phone, I thought it looked pretty good, other than a modern-looking brass habaki which I took as a sign that the koshirae is put together. Now that I've had a chance to look at the pictures on my computer, I'm deeply disturbed by what appears to be a mostly removed SHO stamp above the mei. What do you guys think? Edited September 11 by RobCarter3 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobCarter3 Posted September 11 Author Report Share Posted September 11 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiipu Posted September 11 Report Share Posted September 11 The location you marked is usually where the "Star" stamp was located. If the sword came via Japan in the postwar years, the "Star" stamp could have been removed, so as to register the sword with the authorities. Wartime stamps were frowned upon, including the "Star" stamp. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted September 11 Report Share Posted September 11 Agree. That was likely a star stamp, and this looks like a nice Gendaito. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobCarter3 Posted September 11 Author Report Share Posted September 11 Glad I posted instead of passing. I'll try to get some additional pics of both sides of the nakago from the seller. Any chance the brass habaki is wartime original? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Pennington Posted September 11 Report Share Posted September 11 That's a really nice looking gunto! Assuming the seller has the date correctly, that's the latest date I have for the Yama stamp, and the latest date I have of a Hiromasa blade. I can clearly see the star. And I see no reason to doubt the originality of the habaki. Springs of '45 is quite late in the war. Many parts were being made with lower quality standards by that time. @mecox 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John C Posted September 11 Report Share Posted September 11 This area appears to have some activity along the hamon, which would not be typical if it were a showa-to. John C. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobCarter3 Posted September 11 Author Report Share Posted September 11 Seller confirmed that the sword came from Japan, so the removed star stamp theory holds water and would explain everything else that we're seeing. I edited the thread title to be less provocative. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiipu Posted September 11 Report Share Posted September 11 5 hours ago, RobCarter3 said: I'm deeply disturbed by what appears to be a mostly removed SHO stamp above the mei. Hiromasa 博正 was from Ehime Prefecture 愛媛県. The 昭 stamp was only used in Gifu Prefecture. So it would be impossible for it to be that stamp. For more information about Hiromasa and Ehime Prefecture, I would suggest taking a look at the monograph below. Showa Period Swordsmiths of Ehime Prefecture 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobCarter3 Posted September 11 Author Report Share Posted September 11 Closed the deal and the Hiromasa will be coming home with me. Thank you everyone for the information and advice. I was about to let this one go! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mecox Posted September 11 Report Share Posted September 11 Hiromasa was a prolific and capable smith and also worked closely with Kokura arsenal. The erased stamp would have been a star as @Kiipu noted. A late war date of 1945 is most likely and is indicated by the 2 x "yama" 山 stamps on nakago mune. This suggests blade may have been submitted and made at Matsuyama branch. There is some discussion of this in paper on Fukuoka/Kokura smiths in Downloads: 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiipu Posted September 11 Report Share Posted September 11 Below is a link to an early "Star" stamp from the same smith. This particular blade is dated October 1942. Note the different mix of inspection stamps. Mal's tome mentioned above goes into this in more detail. Can anyone translate this? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobCarter3 Posted September 11 Author Report Share Posted September 11 22 minutes ago, Kiipu said: Hiromasa 博正 was from Ehime Prefecture 愛媛県. The 昭 stamp was only used in Gifu Prefecture. So it would be impossible for it to be that stamp. I know that a gendaito by an Ehime smith would never have a Seki/Gifu commercial association stamp. I was about to buy the sword and then noticed a removed stamp and alarm bells started going off that this was a komonjo-type special where someone had applied a spurious Hiromasa mei to a Seki showato, despite all the other indications that the mei looked right, "yama" stamps check out, hamon is in Hiromasa's characteristic Bizen style choji-midare, blade is obviously water quenched, etc. You and the others are obviously correct that it's a removed star stamp. Very glad I came here and sought opinions from more experienced eyes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiipu Posted September 11 Report Share Posted September 11 The lineage chart of Hiromasa courtesy of @Stephen. Yoshū Hōjō-jū Hiromasa katana in shingunto koshirae 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiipu Posted September 17 Report Share Posted September 17 On 9/11/2024 at 9:40 AM, RobCarter3 said: Purportedly it's dated spring 1945 but I don't have any pictures of that side of the nakago. When the dust settles, please post a picture of this side of the tang. Also, can you see the outline of the removed stamp or is it completely obliterated? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobCarter3 Posted September 17 Author Report Share Posted September 17 @Kiipu I should have the sword in hand tomorrow or Thursday and l’ll update with the requested pictures. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiipu Posted September 17 Report Share Posted September 17 In the meantime, take a look at this Hiromasa 博正. I wonder if this is another example of a stamp removal? Thoughts anyone? 豫州北條住博正作 昭和十八年二月日 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John C Posted September 17 Report Share Posted September 17 1 hour ago, Kiipu said: Thoughts anyone? Beautiful gendaito. But you could be right. This looks like it may have been a seki stamp. John C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Pennington Posted September 18 Report Share Posted September 18 I see what you are seeing, John, but in my experience, the large Seki stamp is always (I know - never say never nor always!) on the other side of the shinogi line, like this: I think there is a removed star on the other side: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cisco-san Posted September 18 Report Share Posted September 18 does not look like a Seki stamp... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobCarter3 Posted September 23 Author Report Share Posted September 23 On 9/17/2024 at 1:36 PM, Kiipu said: When the dust settles, please post a picture of this side of the tang. Also, can you see the outline of the removed stamp or is it completely obliterated? The sword is finally in hand after USPS misplaced it for 5 days. I cannot see the outline of the stamp -- it was thoroughly removed. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobCarter3 Posted September 23 Author Report Share Posted September 23 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiipu Posted September 23 Report Share Posted September 23 昭和廿年仲春日 A day in mid-spring 1945. ？ 豫州北條住博正作 Yoshū Hōjō-jū Hiromasa saku [? Possible "Star" stamp peened out.] Note the variant form of 住 used. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Pennington Posted September 24 Report Share Posted September 24 A star seems the most likely. I only have 4 other HIromasa with various stamps on file and 3 of them are star stamped. The other does not. The only other stamp that would be a primary suspect on that spot, in 1945, is the Gifu stamp, but with Hiromasa being from Ehime, that seems pretty unlikely. So, I've filed it as a likely star stamp blade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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