TSUBA COMPETITION! (and opinions please)

[Matsunoki]

Recently acquired this from a reliable eBay seller.

I loved the crickets and it just fascinated me. I thought it worth a closer look. It was sold as ko-Kinko Muromachi and to my eyes it looks a seriously  old piece of work. The inlay is not very refined but very deeply done (see the missing moon cavity on the Kanzan and Jittoku side) It is covered in wear and tear.The rim is applied in heavy shakudo. The actual inlay appears dark shibuichi. The patina miraculously looks totally untouched and the build up of oxidation that is creeping from the rim onto the plate is something I’ve never seen before in that thickness. 

So, what do you all think? Old? How old? Any school? Anything similar?

 

….and the competition….has anyone got a tsuba with a more mangled seppadai/sekigane?🙂

Thanks for looking.

All the best. 

[Lee Bray]

The Umetada school used copper/alloy ground with shakudo inlays commonly, Umetada Myoju being well known for it, and I reckon this is trying to emulate that style.
Unfortunately, it doesn't do it very well and I wonder if it's a much later copy/utsushi with some heavy duty 'aging' by an amateur.
This link shows a good example.

http://nihontocraft.com/Umetada_Tsuba.htm

 

 

[Spartancrest]

  On 9/11/2024 at 1:17 PM, Matsunoki said:

….and the competition….has anyone got a tsuba with a more mangled seppadai/sekigane?🙂

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From an old thread https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/42301-constricted-nakago-ana/   Try fitting a blade into this squeezed nakago-ana!

 

[Matsunoki]

  On 9/11/2024 at 1:52 PM, Lee Bray said:

Unfortunately, it doesn't do it very well and I wonder if it's a much later copy/utsushi with some heavy duty 'aging' by an amateur.

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Thanks Lee. That’s interesting info and a thought provoking comparison. Thank you for your views.

Anything is possible but I’m familiar with mixed metalwork and “in hand” the ageing does not look forced or enhanced. If it is it’s the best I’ve ever seen. One hell of a gifted amateur! It also looks like it has been genuinely mounted several times.

This effect is especially convincing?

Hmmmm…..

  On 9/11/2024 at 2:11 PM, Spartancrest said:

Try fitting a blade into this squeezed nakago-ana!

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Sorry Dale, my seppadai is far more mangled. Yours has just 8 strikes. Cmon, you can do better 🙂🙂

[1kinko]

The composition doesn't tell any tale that I can see and the execution is mediocre imho. That combined with the mimi suggest a reuse of something less refined like maybe 2 copper plates? Any sign of a seam in any of the ana?

[Matsunoki]

  On 9/11/2024 at 3:11 PM, 1kinko said:

Any sign of a seam in any of the ana?

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Thanks for looking Darrel

Nope. Definitely a solid plate. Agree it is very “unrefined” but  plate and the rim are well made. It’s heavy  for its modest size (68x65mm) The design seems whimsical …almost childlike.

Also in hand the copper patina is much darker.

Someone put a lot of time and effort into it imo

 

 

 

[Matsunoki]

Continuing its examination I think the very light engraving that (almost) follows the inlay outlines has been done later. It would like much better without it ie just silhouettes. 

[Kurikata]

A kaga tsuba ? 

 

Please refer to: https://blog.goo.ne....880e4c0b78b46747ae32

[Matsunoki]

  On 9/11/2024 at 3:48 PM, Kurikata said:

A kaga tsuba ? 

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Some common features. Many thanks. 

[Curran]

While similar to Kaga and to Umetada work, my feeling was:     kinko Ko-Shoami

Kinko Ko-shoami are much much more rare than iron works. RKG has or had one I really fancy. I've never actually owned one myself.

Not many paper that way. Usually NBTHK can just be lazy and say 'Ko-kinko'.

 

 

 

 

[Matsunoki]

  On 9/11/2024 at 5:40 PM, Curran said:

While similar to Kaga and to Umetada work, my feeling was:     kinko Ko-Shoami

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Curran, that’s interesting but way outside my meagre tsuba knowledge . Can you point me at any or tell me where to look?

Meantime I’ll hit Google….

Many thanks.

Colin

[DoTanuki yokai]

The “corrosion” at the rim looks like urushi for me. It was maybe applied to protect the patina and give the piece more visible structure imho. 
You can also see it on the umetada example but much thinner. It is wiped off because you only want a thin layer but more remnants stay in the deeper parts. 

[kissakai]

I bought this for it's age and the mangled seppa area

 

 

 

[Curran]

  On 9/11/2024 at 6:06 PM, Matsunoki said:

Curran, that’s interesting but way outside my meagre tsuba knowledge . Can you point me at any or tell me where to look?

Meantime I’ll hit Google….

Many thanks.

Colin

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I don't know how many kinko Ko-Shoami papers you can see unless someone with a database chimes in.

I may go looking later.

 

It isn't easy to define Ko-Shoami kinko. 

     Most of the ones I have seen that were NBTHK papered were sort of [mountain-copper] base with a shakudo fukurin. Various shapes. Some had textured surface, and most had the use of inlay of either gold or shakudo in a way that looked somewhat Kaga or Umetada. The one RKG owned could have easily been mistaken for a very early (Higo) Hirata school example.

 

 

[Rodenbacher]

Not an answer, but a new question: The copper plate looks as if it was originally larger and was reduced in size at some point. The shakudo rim may then have been added. Some of the motifs on the plate seem to be cut off at the edge, do you think that could be a possibility? 

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[MauroP]

I think Umetada (or ko-Umetada) could be a good call.
Here below a ko-Umetada tsuba (according to NBTHK) and the only ko-Shōami in soft metal I was able to find (which BTW is also not so far from the tsuba discussed here).

 

.

 

[Spartancrest]

  On 9/11/2024 at 8:02 PM, DoTanuki yokai said:

The “corrosion” at the rim looks like urushi for me.

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That's what I was thinking Christian, [you beat me to it - well I have to sleep sometime!] Urushi is a pain to clean off if anyone has tried, but the purists might say it adds to the history and should be maintained, I have seen the damage it can cause on Iron guards - not so much on kinko.

 

Shocking Shingen tissue thin seppa-dai.

 

[Andi B.]

Triple Sekigane:

 

[Matsunoki]

Firstly, thanks to all for your observations and pointers. Whilst I know this is not an important tsuba the more I look at it the more puzzled I become. Don’t know why I like it so much, not my usual thing but there is a certain charm in it.

Anyway, pondering on your thoughts…..and apologies for “going on” about something rather modest!

 

…and some great smashed seppadai ….difficult decision.

 

  On 9/11/2024 at 3:11 PM, 1kinko said:

The composition doesn't tell any tale that I can see

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Darrel, one side, Kanzan and Jittoku looking at the  moon on a cloudy night, the other side crickets in presumably their favourite foliage. Those two kinda go together….crickets singing at night? Quite poetic bearing in mind Kanzan was supposedly a poet?

 

  On 9/11/2024 at 8:02 PM, DoTanuki yokai said:

The “corrosion” at the rim looks like urushi for me.

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Christian, yes indeed it could be although I have seen creeping verdigris that looks similar. However I wonder why you would apply urushi to  a Kinko tsuba that doesn’t rust and when it would cover the inlay?? If it was all over then it has worn off presumably natrurally over a long period as the patina is lovely and dark?

 

  On 9/11/2024 at 9:59 PM, Rodenbacher said:

The copper plate looks as if it was originally larger and was reduced in size at some point. The shakudo rim may then have been added. Some of the motifs on the plate seem to be cut off at the edge, do you think that could be a possibility? 

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Peter, again anything is possible but although the encrustation around the rim makes it difficult to be sure I think most if not all of the design remains and does not go off the edge. One or two places is suspect due to obscuration. It is quite common for details to emerge from the edge or disappear off depending on the intended design??

[DoTanuki yokai]

Without urushi 

with urushi

 

the reasons I have explained earlier. 

 

Without the urushi the engravings would only be really visible in the right light. Like a clear lacquer in modern times the Urushi also protects the surface. 

Edit2: I changed the pictures ,found some fitting ones but want to add that I removed this patina and urushi later because I was unhappy with it. It works for the explanation I hope. 

 

Edit: here you can see that much more urushi will be left close to the rim simply because it’s harder too get wiped off there.

[Matsunoki]

  On 9/12/2024 at 9:26 AM, DoTanuki yokai said:

It works for the explanation I hope.

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Thanks Christian. On mine it’s really thick and blackish with a granular quality so they must have put it on heavily!

The fact that it’s black threw me ie it would cover up the inlay.

Anyway I now understand. Many thanks.

 

 

[Rivkin]

Not really a tosogu person, but I would second its likely to get ko kinko papers, but kinko ko shoami looks right.