Emil Posted September 8 Report Posted September 8 Bought from a reputable dealer in Tokyo with the appraisal paper saying it's Edo era, high relief carved chrysantemum tsuba. Some people have commented that it looks like Meiji or Showa era. What do you think? Quote
Matsunoki Posted September 8 Report Posted September 8 Well, to my eyes it looks a 20thC cast tsuba with maybe some hand finishing. Made to look flashy but lacking in quality. I really cannot see it being Edo hand carved. I’d vote Showa. Just an opinion, might be wrong. 1 1 Quote
FlorianB Posted September 8 Report Posted September 8 I’m not an expert, but it seems a chinese fake. At first glance the strange bean-shaped form of the hitsu-ana and the asymmetrical sides of the nakago ana look not right. 34 minutes ago, Emilll said: a reputable dealer in Tokyo with the appraisal paper I don't know neither the dealer nor the paper but I would recommend hands off. Florian Quote
Emil Posted September 8 Author Report Posted September 8 14 minutes ago, FlorianB said: I’m not an expert, but it seems a chinese fake. I was in their store in Tokyo when I bought the tsuba along with a katana. I find it very hard to believe that they would be selling a Chinese fake. But what do I know. I prefer not to mention the dealer's name here, as I believe it's disrespectful for an amateur like me to question things without the knowledge and risk their reputation. But I can tell you over a private message if you'd like to know. Quote
Jake6500 Posted September 8 Report Posted September 8 Definitely seems like a late piece to me. I think Colin is mostly correct (and he is more knowledgeable than me) about it being cast. Cast however does not necessarily disqualify it from being authentic, however it does cast doubt on the idea that the piece is from the Edo Period. Where I disagree with Colin is on the period. The style of this tsuba reminds me of some Meiji Period pieces I have seen so I believe it could still date back to pre-war Japan. Regarding what Florian has written, I think the Nakago-Ana is just a bit worn from use or deformed from the casting process. I do not believe this is a Chinese fake. If there is a photo of the appraisal paper, that might give some additional insight. Quote
FlorianB Posted September 8 Report Posted September 8 Emil, sorry for my straightforward judgement because now I saw You bought it already. There is no necessity to reveal this dealer, but maybe You can show the paper? Best, Florian Quote
Emil Posted September 8 Author Report Posted September 8 This paper is not really this blank, I edited away all the dealer information from the paper. And for those of you who recognize the dealer by the paper design, let's focus on the tsuba and not who sold it in this thread please. Quote
FlorianB Posted September 8 Report Posted September 8 Emil, this paper is by the dealer himself and thus his personal opinion. At least I’m not convinced by this statement. Florian Quote
Emil Posted September 8 Author Report Posted September 8 Yes I'm aware, there's not much on this paper that I didn't already say in the beginning of the thread unfortunately Quote
FlorianB Posted September 8 Report Posted September 8 Have You got a photo from the backside? (of the Tsuba, not the paper ) Florian Quote
Jake6500 Posted September 8 Report Posted September 8 34 minutes ago, Emilll said: This paper is not really this blank, I edited away all the dealer information from the paper. And for those of you who recognize the dealer by the paper design, let's focus on the tsuba and not who sold it in this thread please. Yikes, this makes me lean more toward the possibility of a later piece or fake. Real authentication papers should always look like these for future reference: EDIT: To clarify I still don't think this is a "fake". Likely Showa or Meiji Period cast. 1 1 Quote
Emil Posted September 8 Author Report Posted September 8 No unfortunately I don't have a photo of the backside at the moment. It looks the same, but I can't say if it's identical without examining it first. I'm not particularly worried about the tsuba I just want to learn more about it. (Paid 35,000 Yen / $250). It's part of a birthday gift for my father, along with a Showa-to from the same dealer. And I don't want to lie and say the tsuba is Edo period, 200 years old, if it's not. To be clear: the tsuba did not come with the sword, I choose it separately. Quote
Jake6500 Posted September 8 Report Posted September 8 5 minutes ago, Emilll said: No unfortunately I don't have a photo of the backside at the moment. It looks the same, but I can't say if it's identical without examining it first. I'm not particularly worried about the tsuba I just want to learn more about it. (Paid 35,000 Yen). It's part or a birthday gift for my father, along with a Showa-to from the same dealer. And I don't want to lie and say the tsuba is Edo period, 200 years old, if it's not. To be clear: the tsuba did not come with the sword, I choose it separately. If 35000 yen is what you paid just for the tsuba itself I feel confident in saying you've overpaid, however I don't think the tsuba is "fake". If anything I think this tsuba might fit a Showa-to well. It is clearly post-Edo and I suspect it is likely from the inter-war period. (I've been referring to the tsuba as possibly "Meiji" but actually I am lumping the Meiji and Taisho periods together for our purposes. An attribution to the period between 1914-1945 seems quite likely to me based on the style, photographs and signs of wear). There are plenty of other more knowledgeable experts on the forum so we'll see if we get some more responses! Quote
FlorianB Posted September 8 Report Posted September 8 I just wanted to know, if there are tagane which would explain the deformations of the nakago-ana. Incidentally I was thinking of a Tsuba for Gendaito (IF it is original). I wonder about the material. The seppa dai looks like brass, the plate itself like brownish copper… Florian Quote
Emil Posted September 8 Author Report Posted September 8 14 minutes ago, Jake6500 said: If 35000 yen is what you paid just for the tsuba itself I feel confident in saying you've overpaid, however I don't think the tsuba is "fake". I don't doubt it, just out if curiosity and in your opinion, by how much do think I overpaid? Quote
Emil Posted September 8 Author Report Posted September 8 Thank you so much for the valuable input. Since I have your attention I would like to ask what you make of this tsuba that came with the sword. There was no information on it at all. But even a beginner like me was quite unimpressed with it Quote
Emil Posted September 8 Author Report Posted September 8 19 minutes ago, FlorianB said: I just wanted to know, if there are tagane which would explain the deformations of the nakago-ana. 19 minutes ago, FlorianB said: I wonder about the material. The seppa dai looks like brass, the plate itself like brownish copper Interesting observations, I will examine it more in detail when I get back home Quote
Jake6500 Posted September 8 Report Posted September 8 13 minutes ago, Emilll said: Thank you so much for the valuable input. Since I have your attention I would like to ask what you make of this tsuba that came with the sword. There was no information on it at all. But even a beginner like me was quite unimpressed with it Can't quite remember which one but the motif is a samurai clan crest. This tsuba however, I think is modern-modern based off this image at least. Edit: It is Ii clan mon. Quote
Jake6500 Posted September 8 Report Posted September 8 16 minutes ago, Emilll said: I don't doubt it, just out if curiosity and in your opinion, by how much do think I overpaid? Obviously it's a matter of opinion but I would say probably about double the value. It would be best to ask a reputable dealer that question, but this is what I'd say. Tbh I am less knowledgeable about the price values of later periods and even for Edo Period pieces am still developing my price sense so I might be wrong. Quote
Matsunoki Posted September 8 Report Posted September 8 Re your original tsuba….I’d bet it’s all the same material with the plate having been treated with some type of colouration….possibly black/dark wax to make it look older. Re the new tsuba…..looks brand new. What’s it made from? Quote
Emil Posted September 8 Author Report Posted September 8 Jake, you're so right, Li Naomasa family crest, Japanese maple leaf, spot on. Regarding the material, I'm not sure. I agree, being a Showa-to it's the kind of tsuba that fits the sword. I was choosing between a lot of tsubas and this one just spoke to me. Thank you all for providing me with more knowledge Quote
Jake6500 Posted September 8 Report Posted September 8 10 minutes ago, Emilll said: Jake, you're so right, Li Naomasa family crest, Japanese maple leaf, spot on. Regarding the material, I'm not sure. I agree, being a Showa-to it's the kind of tsuba that fits the sword. I was choosing between a lot of tsubas and this one just spoke to me. Thank you all for providing me with more knowledge Is this picture from the same dealer with your tsuba at the end? Some of these other tsuba definitely look like Edo Period tsuba. The second from the left is a nice Heianjo style tsuba. Lends some credit back to the dealer again if these were some of the other options. Quote
Emil Posted September 8 Author Report Posted September 8 16 minutes ago, Jake6500 said: Is this picture from the same dealer with your tsuba at the end? Yes it's all from the same dealer, with both my tsubas on the far right and left sides of the table. I'm sure the other tsubas (see this picture) might be "better" but they didn't appeal to my untrained eye in the same way. On another note, these three were the suggestions of the dealer, while the forth one that I actaully choose, was my pick from the iPad they gave me to sort through their vast selection. You can see the prices here as well 45-50k Yen Quote
FlorianB Posted September 8 Report Posted September 8 1 hour ago, Emilll said: untrained eye Next time it seems wise to trust the suggestions of Your dealer. If the depicted blade is the content of Your sword it looks O.K.. Not much to be recognized on the pictures, but there seem to be no faults. I think it's Shinto but You said Showa-to...? Florian 2 Quote
Emil Posted September 8 Author Report Posted September 8 In the end I think it makes for a good match, I don't regret it. Although I must admit I don't have a refined taste in this. A great gift to my father who is not a collector nor does he have any particular knowledge on the area. It is the intended gift katana you see in the picture, a WW2 Showato in uchigatana koshirae and shirasaya, even came with full lenght tsunagi. Well forged, but not something to write home about. At least I can present the sword as bought and made in Japan, and 100x better than giving him a chinese made MiniKatana, IMO. And I'm sure you all agree, rookies like us (me and my dad) shouldn't be handling the most precious swords out there 😉 Quote
zanilu Posted September 8 Report Posted September 8 Emil do not worry about not mentioning the dealer. I think most of was able to recognize the dealer by the style of the pictures alone... More so after you posting the "certificate". For the tsuba to me it seems to me a post Edo, maybe late Meiji to early Showa, not a fake per se. Regards Luca Quote
FlorianB Posted September 8 Report Posted September 8 1 hour ago, Emilll said: rookies like us (me and my dad) shouldn't be handling the most precious swords out there Who knows - maybe it's a start! Enjoy and learn, Best, Florian Quote
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