What exactly determines the price of a nihonto?

[Lewis B]

26 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Blimey Michael, that’s going to get peoples’ attention!  We aren’t heading towards another “green paper” crisis are we?

 

My knowledge of Shinsa procedures is minimal as I am not a “papers man” but I have heard whispers about a drop in the expertise of panel members etc…….

I've heard similar rumours. In fact collectors are sending their blades to Tanobe sensei for sayagaki while they still can. He's not getting any younger...... When the baton is finally passed who will you submit your blades to for a 3rd party opinion? Only Juyo passed blades will get a similar level of academic scrutiny. I'm sure someone will step up but I've yet to hear of anyone as recognised in the field as Tanobe. 

But I agree a consensus of opinion is preferred over a single source no matter who that might be. Everyone is fallible. In fact I have seen several Juyo swords with Kizu/Ware that had Chin Chin Cho Cho kanji. 

[atm]

1 hour ago, Lewis B said:

In fact I have seen several Juyo swords with Kizu/Ware that had Chin Chin Cho Cho kanji. 

Maybe I am misunderstanding your intent, but you seem to suggest this is a reason to question Tanobe sensei’s credibility. But these things are not mutually exclusive and more context is needed. A blade having kizu or ware does not automatically disqualify it from achieving Juyo or receiving Tanobe sensei’s praise if it meets other criteria.

 

Yes, Tanobe sensei is human and one person. That said, I am more likely to place his opinion over a shinsa panel due to his depth of knowledge and expertise. Others think the opposite, which is fine, too. As discussed on NMB earlier this year, I have a TH mumei sword that NBTHK attributed to Den Aoe. When submitted to Tanobe sensei for sayagaki, he declined to write it as Den Aoe and explained his reasoning. Instead, with my consent, he wrote a glowing sayagaki as Ko-Mihara Masaie. If you look at this sword, I think you’d agree that the NBTHK shinsa panel got it wrong. After all, they are also human.

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/47932-seeking-advice-on-tanobe-nbthk-different-appraisals/

[Lewis B]

Interesting backstory regarding your Ko-Mihara/Aoe conundrum. I would also not have removed the remnants of the kinzoganmei. So how do you like it now that you've had a chance to study it in hand and reviewed the conflicting attributions. 

This is a good illustration of Tanobe not rubberstamping and echoing previous recent assignments. His considered approach backed by knowledge acquired over many many decades is why his sayagaki are highly sought after. You thought so too, as you asked him to write it knowing what attribution he would give. 

My comment was a general remark pointing to Tanobe's connoisseurship.  His experience allows him to see past the minor imperfections and evaluate the blade in the context of Gokaden, era, smith and its position within a plethora of other works by the same School/swordsmith. 

[Rivkin]

Absolute Savagery. Some people think they can just write a sayagaki, others think they can just write a certificate.

 

In Russia issuing appraisal certificates for swords requires a government registration as an expert, which in turn requires a recommendation of the cultural expertise council, to be a member of which one needs to be first no less than a department  head at a major museum.

They would put a stop to Tanobe's shenanigans in a matter of seconds - electrodes to the balls and then eight years chopping sayagaki material... Generally, issuing opinion on a subject where one does not have a government certification as a recognized academic expert, attested by the leading members of the academia is not taken lightly there, there is a criminal article called "intentionally spreading falsehoods".

 

[atm]

2 hours ago, Lewis B said:

So how do you like it now that you've had a chance to study it in hand and reviewed the conflicting attributions. 

I like it a lot. In hand, Tanobe sensei’s attribution makes more sense to me than NBTHK’s attribution. And I like the combination of the big, weighty (albeit shortened) Nanbokucho form with the elegance of the suguha hamon.

[Mushin]

Putting aside the side issue of Tanobe and "expert panels," (which, BTW, Tanobe oversaw for many, many years while at the NBTHK where he once was the head researcher, ie an "expert,") there is another factor that helps determine blade value: the condition of the nakago, or the tang. Nakago are often overlooked, especially by newbies, but I've seen the value of swords with great workmanship plummet when the nakago was badly deteriorated by water or fire damage, or if it were horribly disfigured by a clumsy shortening process. 

 

Likewise, a blade in which the nakago as been "lengthened" by moving the machi up the blade (machi-okuri,) will also impact value. In short, anything that alters the "original vision" of the smith -- reshaping kissaski (sword tip) , changing funbari (blade taper) or shortening the blade -- all can impact the price. That is why among Juyo blades and better, naginata nioshi (naginata that have been reshaped or "corrected" to be a sword)  are always more affordable than unaltered Juyo blades by the same smith. Why? Because the changes altered the smith's original vision of the blade.

 

Additionally, what's on the nakago can increase or decrease a blade's value. For example, a blade with the name of the original owner on the nakago can increase a sword's value, even moreso if it was an historical figure. I recall a blade listed on AOI Art a few years back that was a signed Hasebe with an inscription in gold inlay that it once belonged to Tokugawa Ieyasu's father. The blade wasn't on the AOI auction site for but a few hours before it was pulled, presumably by somebody willing to pay way more than the opening bid price because of this incredible information on the tang.

 

In the case of Sue-Bizen smiths, full signatures, called Zokumyo Mei, that include a smith's full name and title, are deemed more desirable than generic smith inscriptions. Thus a blade signed Bizen no Kuni ju Osafune Jirozaemon no Jo Katsumitsu is going to cost you considerably more than a blade signed simply Bishu Osafune Katsumitsu, even if it is papered to Jirozaemon Katsumitsu. Blades with signatures and dates, or nengo, also tend to command higher prices than a blade with just a signature. In fact, the Japanese consider blades with inscriptions such as dates on the ura side of the blade to be "precious." Rarely, the nakago mune can also be inscribed with information, adding to it's allure and price tag.

 

So, just to recap,  if you have two katana of equal nagasa and quality by a famed smith such as Echigo Norishige, the one with the original unaltered tango will command a bigger asking price than the one that is suriage, as long as all other things are more or less equal. Likewise, if both are ubu and signed, but one is signed AND dated, that will command more money. The same is true if the signature on one is better than the other because of a water damage nakago.

 

Often it's hard for new collectors to understand why the part of the blade hidden under a handle is so important, but it is. The more you get into the hobby, the more things you learn about why one sword might command a higher asking price than another that is similar. There are many things to think about before you plonk down you hard earned cash on a sword. 

 

That said, the reality is not all of us have the resources of Elon Musk, and often we mere mortals have to settle for a blade that is less than perfect because of what we can afford. But at least we can understandn the things that make the difference in the ask, and can even help us understand why one sword was awarded Juyo or Tokubetsu Juyo status and another did not. These things can also help us in negotiating better prices. 

 

[sabiji]

 

A description (Setsumei) of a particular blade is only given once you have achieved Juyo status.

 

A sayagaki primarily serves only as information about the content (what it is, who made it, the length).

 

Tanobe Sensei's sayagaki are usually accompanied by an explanation and his opinion of the blade he has studied - which is basically similar to a juyo setsumei. 

Therefore, it is not the simple presence of a tanobe sayagaki that is important, but its content! And it is precisely this point that makes his sayagaki so coveted.

 

One should not forget that Tanobe Sensei writes a sayagaki because its owner wants it. Therefore, you should also carefully consider why you are presenting a particular sword to him in order to request his assessment. 

 

 

[Lewis B]

25 minutes ago, sabiji said:

 

 

 

One should not forget that Tanobe Sensei writes a sayagaki because its owner wants it. Therefore, you should also carefully consider why you are presenting a particular sword to him in order to request his assessment. 

 

 

Well one reason might be understand if the blade is a good candidate for Juyo Shinsa. This might be inferred from the sayagaki and/or it can be a verbal opinion as was the case with my Yamato Shikkake. A dealer has a vested interest to big note a TH blade to boost its value. Tanobe is to a greater or lesser extent impartial. Veteran collectors I have met also put a great deal of weight in his opinions. If the sword is in Japan its a no brainer to ask if he will write a Sayagaki which adds a little more historical context for future generations. 

[Jussi Ekholm]

There have been excellent posts made above. I think I will just expand this with various examples, as I will have plenty of those to add substance to some of the various points made in posts made to this thread.

 

I made the Hizen Tadahiro comparison just to show some variety. Given they would all be priced equally I would personally choose the one with horimono & koshirae. However these swords are all of size and shape that I would not buy. To me personally I do not find this shape & size interesting and I would look for something else.

 

Like Jacques I don't like to talk about the price of items that much. Of course I am in fortunate/unfortunate spot I cannot buy anything for several years, so for me it would all be speculative stuff anyways. And I do think sometimes we might get too attached to attribution the sword has been papered to or the level of papers by organization etc.

 

Historical provenance is highly sought after, yet blades with proven historical provenance are pretty difficult to obtain to the collection. I am currently doing lots of research on provenance of famous old swords and there are still lots and lots of blades that have varying from of provenance. Sometimes I am not absolutely certain how the Japanese experts can connect the dots on some swords & provenance but I bow to their authority. I have only quite recently started being fascinated with this and there is so much to research and learn, I am bit shamed to admit I have previously overlooked this subject. Blades with proven provenance will be available for buying but they are often high quality items which of course puts them in expensive price bracket.

 

I completely agree what @dyn @Mushin wrote about zaimei & mumei earlier in the thread. However there can be curveballs where other factors override the signature. For the smith Rai Kunitoshi, here is a signed tantō: http://web.archive.o....net/SHOP/O-225.html that was listed for 2,7M asking price, and here is a mumei tantō attributed to him: https://eirakudo.sho.../tanto/detail/750496 that was 3,5M asking price. Both items being Tokubetsu Hozon, and in my opinion they are now at their current end level with NBTHK classification. I couldn't see either of them going any higher.

 

Small disagreements with attributions are perfecly understandable, as kantei for mumei blades is extremely difficult. Something like Mihara Masaie vs. Aoe I could very well understand. Here is another example that I found interesting as it was long very old tachi https://yushindou.com/生ぶ無銘太刀（伝古青江）（古波平）白鞘/. NBTHK attribution was Ko-Naminohira and NTHK attribution Ko-Aoe. Now while they might seem very different to me there is not too big difference between them. If I would had somehow acquired that item, would had been fun to send to Tanobe for 3rd opinion and see what he thinks of it. Unfortunately I am not yet that aware of NTHK attributions and I only have 1 of their 4 Yushu books. I plan to get all of them some day. However there are items with both NBTHK and NTHK attributions. Some of the famous so far might be Norishige tantō, Motoshige tachi, Yasumitsu tachi that are both Tokubetsu Jūyō and NTHK Yushu.

 

Also I think there will be very high level experts in Japan even if the old guard passes. Of course often in Japanese way the students feel they can never surpass their teachers. However I would give props to modern generation of NBTHK staff too, reading the Jūyō setsumei, Tōken bijutsu magazine etc. I feel comfortable with their expertise as it far surpasses mine. Also what I have heard there are multiple unaffiliated experts in Japan too, and they teach too, so I feel confident the next generation of sword researchers keep it going. I have never met any of the top Japanese experts, just read their knowledge from books and I think same will happen in the future too. While the old experts had/have their mountain of knowledge, they were generous in sharing it and we have ever expanding amount of data in various easy to access forms currently. While it is possible some information will be gone, there are new things being discovered and researched.

 

[sabiji]

@Jussi Ekholm, your Tadahiro comparison is certainly interesting, precisely because we have a noticeable price difference here from one and the same swordsmith. You base your choice on the fact that price is not important. But it would be interesting not to do so, precisely in the spirit of the topic.

 

Your choice is understandable. The blade is relatively well preserved, it has Horimono and it has a Koshirae. These are all factors that make such a sword very attractive to collectors on the general market. But it is priced exactly in the middle.

So why isn't the most expensive Tadahiro in your comparison with such high market potential?

 

Is it just because of the cut test of a well-known representative with a good, fairly early date?

 

The appearance of the sword is marred by the fact that it has already lost some material. In some places the thin Hizen-Kawagane appears to have been polished through. In addition, the blade is machiokuri and the original Nakago-Jiri was cut off.

Nevertheless, I think that this sword is the best of the trio in terms of quality. Although my opinion is irrelevant, I would go so far as to say: if this blade were in the best condition and Ubu, with the cutting test as a bonus - this sword would be a Juyo candidate! (Jussi, you know more about this, but I seem to remember that Nidai Tadahiro is the Shinto smith with the highest number of Juyo).

But since this is not the case, it requires a collector who is willing to pay the price and is willing to accept the "problems".

However, in the price range you have presented, Tadahiro katana with TH are very common. Collectors who are specifically looking for a Tadahiro have a choice and can set certain parameters, such as the time the blade was created, the shape and length, the characteristics of its signature and ultimately its style, which also includes gunome and choji.

 

Your Tadahiro example in particular shows that the topic of prices and swords is not so simple and that you often have to look at each individual case.

 

15 hours ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

Also I think there will be very high level experts in Japan even if the old guard passes. Of course often in Japanese way the students feel they can never surpass their teachers. 

 

If the old guard continues to disappear, an era is certainly over.

 

I don't have enough insight into the scene, especially in Japan. But I have the feeling that a certain elitist and hierarchical thinking was not beneficial in past decades.

 

It is so important that students surpass their masters. Only then has the master done everything right. And only then will new, strong generations emerge.

 

I emphasize again that I have too little background knowledge on the subject and I can only rely on my gut feeling.

Old names are disappearing. Submitting kodogu and blades to a Shinsa of the NBTHK has become more difficult due to limitations and tight registration windows. The last Juyo sessions were the strictest in history. The positive thing, however, is that it counteracts the previous paper inflation. Yes, more young people in Japan seem to be developing an interest in Nihonto, also triggered by various anime and manga. At the same time, more and more museums in Japan are experiencing financial problems. The number of registered swordsmiths is also decreasing. There are discussions in Japan about whether the traditional training of apprentices in the swordsmith's home is still appropriate...

 

Internationally, too, one must not forget that certain political activism and tightening of national gun laws are making it increasingly difficult for collectors in some countries to pursue their hobby.

I would really like to be optimistic, but to be honest, I am anything but sure in which direction things will go in the future...

[Hoshi]

Tadahiro is a good example because they are plentiful and similar. It's the closest we have to a commodity in the Nihonto sphere. This lets us compare different attributes and think more deeply about price determinants. 

 

Tadahiro_1: 1M yen

Tadahiro_2: 2M yen

Tadahiro_3: 3M yen

 

For most in the West, Tadahiro_2>Tadahiro_3>Tadahiro_1. Why? 

 

It's an excellent example because it illustrates some of the difference between Western appraisal of value and Japanese appraisal of value. 

 

Koshirae: West > Japan

In the West, having a koshirae is highly valued. It's known to Japanese dealers, hence they'll adapt low quality koshirae to sell blades to the western markets. In Japan, sword collectors typically do not care. These are seen as two separate objects, and they appeal to distinctly different collectors types. It's a completely different world in terms of knowledge. 

 

Jigane consistency: West > Japan

Western buyers are highly sensitive to minute defects in the jigane such as ware, showing of shintetsu, or irregularities (nagare elements). Much less so in Japan. In fact, if one carefully studies the elite blades (Tokuju/Jubi/Jubun/Kokuho), these types of defect are often present, even in the highest ranking smiths. Jigane consistency is not to be confused with brilliance/wetness (Uroi). The uroi quality of the jigane is a highly valued attribute in Japan, even in the presence of nagare elements or ware disturbing the consistency of the jigane. 

 

Brightness of the Hamon: Japan > West

The attribute of "bright and clear" or Saeru is the most important attribute of a sword in Japan. This manifests as clarity in the Jiba, the contrast between the ha and the ji, and the overall consistency of the nioiguchi, a ha free of blemish (Shimi), and overall distribution, type and variety of nie. These are paramount qualities. There are differences between schools in how these qualities are appraised (e.g., Soshu vs Bizen), but these are advanced topics best left for another discussion. 

 

Now go back to the 3 Tadahiro and look at the hamon photos. 

 

Tadahiro_1: suffers from a grave flaw on a suguha blade: inconsistent nioiguchi. There is an area where the nioiguchi expands upwards and downwards, this is considered a lack of control by the smith and disqualifies the blade as a good sword. This explains the price, it is simply a bad example of Tadahiro. Mistakes happens. 

 

Tadahiro_2: the nioiguchi is rather consistent. Check. However, the contrast between the ha and the ji is not pronounced. Hence, it is not 'bright and clear' - rather, the noiguchi line is and the hamon is rather unremarkable. The Jigane is consistent everywhere, and it has a koshirae and a horimono. This appeals to the western market, but is very weak in the Japanese market. 

 

Tadahiro_3: the nioiguchi is deep and consistent. The ko-nie laden nioiguchi creates a bright contrast with the ji, and extends downwards towards the ha. There are kinsuji forming into the ko-nie, another sign of a good sword. These attributes are highly valued and constitute the essence of a masterfully crafted sword. Now, there is shintetsu showing. Big problem in the West, not so much in Japan. 

 

For these reasons, Tadahiro_3 > Tadahiro_2 > Tadahiro_1 - and while this hierarchy will be quite obvious to any intermediate student in Japan, it's puzzling for us in the West simply because we value attributes differently.

 

For the sake of simplicity I'm leaving out other attributes (Motohaba, Sori, Nakago condition). These attributes are overshadowed anyway by the stark contrast in the Jiba of these works. 

[Schneeds]

Are there links for those examples, Chris? Excellent post, it would be great to see the pictures. 

[Rivkin]

The main problem with valuating any kind of historical object is artificially constrained supply.

In the West you have stuff going into museums but almost never coming out. Paintings and prints which 50 years ago could be bought on demand today come up once every 5 years. Because thousands of them are now locked up in museums, willed or gifted by collectors.

 

Roughly the same thing happens with nihonto.

Order of magnitude there are 10,000 Juyo and a comparable number of Jubi.

Each year I would say the absolute maximum number of Juyo being sold worldwide is probably 100, and a typical number is probably more like 30. And 10 Jubi at best.

Far less than 1% of the total. 

The cause is while an average collector keeps a high end sword for 15+ years, there are Japanese collectors with >500 high end swords who never sell. 

 

If anything seriously bad happens in Japan's economy, Juyo prices will drop from their current "baseline" price of 20-30K USD to more like 8-10. 

[Hoshi]

The links were posted previously by Jussi. I'm reposting them for clarity:

 

Tadahiro_1

Tadahiro_2

Tadahiro_3

 

Quote

Roughly the same thing happens with nihonto.

Order of magnitude there are 10,000 Juyo and a comparable number of Jubi.

 

This is incorrect. There are approximately ~1'000 Jubi and ~12'000 Juyo. 

 

Quote

In the West you have stuff going into museums but almost never coming out. Paintings and prints which 50 years ago could be bought on demand today come up once every 5 years. Because thousands of them are now locked up in museums, willed or gifted by collectors.

 

Similar situation in Japan. The market is so small that a few whales are sufficient to cause a tremendous impact, and the larger the whale - the higher the odds of a whale museum spawning (e.g., Nagoya Token World). This causes a similar lock-up situation. 

[Tsuku]

1 hour ago, Rivkin said:

Order of magnitude there are 10,000 Juyo and a comparable number of Jubi.

Each year I would say the absolute maximum number of Juyo being sold worldwide is probably 100, and a typical number is probably more like 30. And 10 Jubi at best.

 

There are ~12,000 Juyo, but Tsuruta-san alone has 15 Juyo for sale right now. There is way more turnover than 100 a year.

 

Tokuju is a different matter, but there are 10x fewer of those.

[Natichu]

On 9/10/2024 at 4:12 AM, Hoshi said:

... 

Jigane consistency: West > Japan

Western buyers are highly sensitive to minute defects in the jigane such as ware, showing of shintetsu, or irregularities (nagare elements). Much less so in Japan. In fact, if one carefully studies the elite blades (Tokuju/Jubi/Jubun/Kokuho), these types of defect are often present, even in the highest ranking smiths. Jigane consistency is not to be confused with brilliance/wetness (Uroi). The uroi quality of the jigane is a highly valued attribute in Japan, even in the presence of nagare elements or ware disturbing the consistency of the jigane. 

... 

First and foremost, thank you very much for such an insightful post. I found it very helpful. I did have one question about the section on jigane, in particular shintetsu. Is this tolerance of shintetsu an overarching thing - that is, applicable to all blades generally - or is it more particular to blades from schools like Hizen or Rai, in which I understand it may be a bit of a kantei point? (If I'm incorrect on that issue my apologies, I'm a rather rank beginner at all of this.)

[Lewis B]

44 minutes ago, Natichu said:

First and foremost, thank you very much for such an insightful post. I found it very helpful. I did have one question about the section on jigane, in particular shintetsu. Is this tolerance of shintetsu an overarching thing - that is, applicable to all blades generally - or is it more particular to blades from schools like Hizen or Rai, in which I understand it may be a bit of a kantei point? (If I'm incorrect on that issue my apologies, I'm a rather rank beginner at all of this.)

You can also include Aoe where Shintetsu is a kantei feature, thanks to the thin Kawagane. In Koto blades the Shingane can be of a high enough quality to have features that might be expected in the jihada.

 

 

[Jacques D.]

Quote

where does the Rai Kinmichi sayagaki say that it is with excellent workmanship?

典型作而出来傑矣 left column

[Gakusee]

Got it, thanks!

[Hoshi]

Quote

First and foremost, thank you very much for such an insightful post. I found it very helpful. I did have one question about the section on jigane, in particular shintetsu. Is this tolerance of shintetsu an overarching thing - that is, applicable to all blades generally - or is it more particular to blades from schools like Hizen or Rai, in which I understand it may be a bit of a kantei point? (If I'm incorrect on that issue my apologies, I'm a rather rank beginner at all of this.)

 

You're welcome. 

 

Just remember that Shintetsu is never a positive trait, even when it is a kantei trait (e.g., Aoe, Rai). However, when it is a common trait, it is least likely to detract from the overall appraisal of the blade because it is to some degree expected. The same logic applies for Ware, which is common for Hosho, or Nagare elements which are common in Kamakura Soshu works. 

 

Such traits would be considered a significant problem in a blade by Osafune Kagemitsu for example, where consistency in the Jigane is considered the smith's forte and a major point of appreciation. 

 

The rule of thumb: 

 

"If the smith/school is known for certain traits, either positive or negative, ensure that the blade exemplifies the positive, and rest assured that the negative will not detract" 

[Jussi Ekholm]

I was happy to read the posts in the thread and learning many things from here, even though some advanced info is difficult to grasp and understand. I know I chose Hizen Tadahiro as an example and I do not understand nearly enough about Hizen to say anything, that is why it is interesting to read the advanced posts. This might seem really ignorant thing to say but personally for me all of the 3 Tadahiro swords in my example looked pretty much them in overall. Now after reading the great posts that discussed the swords in detail I am able to realize some differences but not enough to me personally. In overall I would agree that the one with the cutting test would have best quality, however I still like the one with horimono more. I think the cutting tests are very rare and they add a lot of prestige to the blade. I feel it might have potential to advance in NBTHK rank, however the more I look into Jūyō items the less I seem to figure out why some items pass... To me it seems extremely complicated and the NBTHK standards today might not be the same as they were 20-30 years ago for example.

 

I like to have actual reference examples in discussions as I find it helpful and I hope others will find it too. While theoretical examples are sometimes fun, discussing some actual items is fun too. I did a small search on Tadahiro swords that are currently in the available market, I think I found something around 25-30 swords quite easily. However I found only 1 Jūyō sword currently for sale. Of course these are all just online listings by dealers with modern NBTHK papers, and the actual number of authentic swords for sale is a lot higher. There are so many Hizen Tadahiro swords surviving to this day I can't even guess the total number. Of course big battles and wars were not going on during the Edo period.

 

Here is the sword from Jūyō session 50 that is being currently sold for 6,6M: https://iidakoendo.com/4573/ Of course Iida pictures are always like this and you can't really say anything from it. Personally I am not wowed by that particular sword at all and I would take the 2M sword from Aoi with horimono over this one, if purely going for personal taste. With items like this you will probably need very high Hizen knowledge and appreciation to really get the most out of them. Items like these are not for me, I have understood that fine details are not for what appeal to me (which might be contrary to high level Japanese sword appreciation).

 

Now here is a TH sword that to me is absolutely amazing. It comes with a price tag of 5,8M and is joint work of Tadahiro and Mutsu Tadayoshi: https://www.kusanaginosya.com/SHOP/164.html This sword looks amazing to me immidiately when I look at it. I would choose this rather than the above Jūyō without blinking an eye. Of course impossible to fully judge and understand from pictures but I would feel sword like this might have a shot at Jūyō, as it seems to me to be high quality craftsmanship combined it being a joint work.

 

For the fun ending and coming back to reality if I would by miracle some day choose trying to get a Hizen sword it would most likely be around the "lower" level item like this Hozon example wakizashi tagged at 580k yen. https://www.toukenkomachi.com/index_ja_tachi&katanaA040324.html As I don't really appreciate Hizen or Edo period items I cannot justify putting money from small budget towards something I would not want. And I posted this item to also show that you can find even signed items by some famous smith for reasonable amount of investment. Of course with the lower investment you will not get the best quality items but it is only normal. It is fun to see how huge the range is for Hizen Tadahiro and you can definately find something from low-mid-high tier to satisfy you Hizen desire.

[Jacques D.]

Quote

Just remember that Shintetsu is never a positive trait, even when it is a kantei trait (e.g., Aoe, Rai)

Totally wrong.

[Schneeds]

34 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

Totally wrong.

 

What would be the upside of having it?  

 

https://www.Japanese...rdindex.com/kizu.htm 

[Jacques D.]

Just the fact that there's no shintetsu in kamakura swords

[Robert S]

8 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

Just the fact that there's no shintetsu in kamakura swords

As Hoshi said, it may be a kantei trait, but I don't think that the presence of shintetsu on a sword is ever going to increase the value of a sword, as compared to a sword by the same maker without shintetsu.

[Jacques D.]

Rai hada is a kantei point but by no means a flaw, rather the sign of a very high-level forge.

[Schneeds]

I'm confused by this.  Shintetsu is just visible core steel due to over polishing, isn't it?  Or are you saying Rai works came out of the forge with shingane already visible?  Why would visible shigane ever be a sign of quality, irrespective of the quality of the shigane?

[Lewis B]

44 minutes ago, Schneeds said:

I'm confused by this.  Shintetsu is just visible core steel due to over polishing, isn't it?  Or are you saying Rai works came out of the forge with shingane already visible?  Why would visible shigane ever be a sign of quality, irrespective of the quality of the shigane?

Older Koto blades eg Yamato, don't have core steel. The construction is hyoshigi-gitae. You can see how they are constructed in this article, which might explain why it is not a positive feature. Personally I think it detracts from the overall aesthetic as the exposed Shigane is often featureless and contrasts badly with the activity that the smith intended to show. It could also weaken the blade as the outer hardened surface, if that was the intention of the smith, is now absent. 

 

https://www.mandarin...hods-Japanese-swords

[Gakusee]

40 minutes ago, Lewis B said:

Older Koto blades eg Yamato, don't have core steel. The construction is hyoshigi-gitae. You can see how they are constructed in this article, which might explain why it is not a positive feature. Personally I think it detracts from the overall aesthetic as the exposed Shigane is often featureless and contrasts badly with the activity that the smith intended to show. It could also weaken the blade as the outer hardened surface, if that was the intention of the smith, is now absent. 

 

https://www.mandarin...hods-Japanese-swords

Same quoted article clearly mentions that some Koto swords have core steel….. Earlier swords indeed did not have core + jacket but eventually they started having this multilayered structure. 

[Rivkin]

Early (pre Kamakura) sword construction is rather diverse. There are many single slab, but about 25% of the overall are sanmai, and there are exotic bilayer left to right on katakiriba shaped blades and bilayer up-down like later on Yamato. Metallography on continental blades (for example, Tolmacheva) tends to be far more representative with total of about hundred blades tested and published, compared to literally few published Japanese examples. Kofun is not illustrative since it has different tendencies.