Alex A Posted September 26 Report Share Posted September 26 16 hours ago, Jacques D. said: Where do you see shintetsu ? I think you need dot learn hada. Last words about Rai hada, you can see chikei in this area can you see chikei in shintetsu ? I know you are always saying we shouldn't judge blades from images, but i cant help but suggest that this is clearly core steel, a good example. Now if someone told me they saw something in core steel that seems out of the ordinary id be asking myself why. Not really thought much about it and only speculating, as don't know. Though odd conversations and seeing and reading stuff online about modern sword production and the re-use and re-temper of stuff left hanging around in workshops, kind of leads me to believe that anything is possible. As said, i don't know and this is only a suggestion, though blades that show core steel really don't appeal to me. Its back to that putting stuff in boxes scenario, who knows what one may come across with regards polished core steel in certain blades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoshi Posted September 26 Report Share Posted September 26 Kudos to the forumites (more patient than me...) that have taken the time to meticulously dispel this misguided belief that Kamakura swords never show core steel. Note that these swords - in spite of the core steel appearing in various forms - are Tokubetsu Juyo. First, Aoe and Rai are prone to showing core steel. Hence, the deterring factor is mitigated. But more importantly, the integrity and regularity of the Jigane are secondary factors. Consider the following traits: A Rai blade with an unexpected drop in clarity of the nioiguchi in a section of the hamon near the boshi A late Aoe blade with ashi that slant only in the upper section of the hamon on one side The unexpected presence of clumped nie in the O-choji of an otherwise flamboyant Ichimonji A fall in the quality and variety of nie near the monouchi of a Soshu blade These are subtle things that Westerners typically wouldn't care about that may cause massive penalties that reverberate both in the attainable level of certification and the end value of the piece on the market in Japan. The market knows this and acts accordingly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shugyosha Posted September 26 Report Share Posted September 26 Here’s a link to a Marcus Sesko article on hada which talks around the subject of Rai hada, Namath hada etc. I think the telling comment (to paraphrase) is that, if the shingane looks different/ better than of other blades, it’s because these are top quality blades and the smiths took greater care over it. https://markussesko....i-2-jigane-jihada-1/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoTanuki yokai Posted September 27 Report Share Posted September 27 I would like to see pictures that show the hardening effect in this spots. And if I see varying quality of Steel does that mean it is the core ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted September 27 Report Share Posted September 27 Rai Kunimitsu tachi; red square shows Rai hada, green circle show chikei. https://emuseum.nich...=0&content_pict_id=0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted September 27 Report Share Posted September 27 Another Rai kunimitsu with Rai hada from the same site https://emuseum.nich...=0&content_pict_id=0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabiji Posted September 27 Report Share Posted September 27 3 hours ago, Jacques D. said: Rai Kunimitsu Tachi; Das rote Quadrat zeigt Rai Hada, der grüne Kreis zeigt Chikei. https://emuseum.nich...=0&content_pict_id=0 At the risk of being burned as a heretic, I see some pretty rough welds in the circles... ...fine chains of black Nie I think I see scattered all over the blade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSM101 Posted September 27 Report Share Posted September 27 Dear Jacques, Nagayama describes chikei as black(Page 87), Sesko describes chikei as blackish, the NBTHK say, that chikei are dark. You see chikei as white. That can only mean, that you have more and better information than the majority. Please, share your knowledge with us. At least I want to know... Uwe G. PS: I would descibe the white lines as jinie due to the lamination. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shugyosha Posted September 27 Report Share Posted September 27 Jacques, those are totally different from the examples you posted previously and which were highlighted by Colin. In this recent batch there is no “Rai hada” in that there is no shingane showing. The previous ones clearly have shingane as they are the large dark areas (the ones that you suggested showed chikei). Read the Markus Sesko’s article: Rai hada is a different colour to the kawagane and it’s equivalent in Aoe blades is Namazu hada, which looks different to the surrounding metal and has the quality of cat fish skin. What you have highlighted immediately above are not chikei nor shingane, just some rougher grain/ small kitae ware or perhaps as Uwe says, ji nie in the example with the more consistent grain. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matsunoki Posted September 27 Report Share Posted September 27 Just as an aside. I don’t think @Jacques D. would have seen the ones I highlighted earlier. I think he has me on “ignore” 🙂🙂having told me he will not answer me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis B Posted September 27 Report Share Posted September 27 51 minutes ago, Matsunoki said: Just as an aside. I don’t think @Jacques D. would have seen the ones I highlighted earlier. I think he has me on “ignore” 🙂🙂having told me he will not answer me. Just in case @Jacques D. missed it. Plus an added bonus from a TJ Norishige. Classic Namazu IMHO Plus an added bonus from a TJ Norishige. Classic Namazu IMHO 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shugyosha Posted September 27 Report Share Posted September 27 2 hours ago, Matsunoki said: Just as an aside. I don’t think @Jacques D. would have seen the ones I highlighted earlier. I think he has me on “ignore” 🙂🙂having told me he will not answer me. Ah, I suspect that Jacques likes to live in a one-man echo chamber. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSM101 Posted September 27 Report Share Posted September 27 A single opinion based on alternative facts? Nah! Uwe G. 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brano Posted September 30 Report Share Posted September 30 On 9/27/2024 at 4:29 PM, CSM101 said: Dear Jacques, Nagayama describes chikei as black(Page 87), Sesko describes chikei as blackish, the NBTHK say, that chikei are dark. You see chikei as white. That can only mean, that you have more and better information than the majority. Please, share your knowledge with us. At least I want to know... Uwe G. PS: I would descibe the white lines as jinie due to the lamination. To me, these "white wavy lines" do not seem ji-nie at all Rather, I think that it is an accentuation of the lamination as a result of the togi-shi work where this lamination seems to "open" a little if the stone of the right hardness is not used 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted October 5 Report Share Posted October 5 I'm appalled by the ignorance and lack of culture of some people: if the chikei appear white in the photos, it's only a matter of light reflection. You'll find the same thing on this tachi attributed to Norishige. That said, I give up and leave you to your beliefs, it's not my problem. https://sword-auction.com/en/product/15644/as22601-刀：無銘則重（特別保存刀剣）/ 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoshi Posted October 5 Report Share Posted October 5 Quote I'm appalled by the ignorance and lack of culture of some people: if the chikei appear white in the photos, it's only a matter of light reflection. You'll find the same thing on this tachi attributed to Norishige. That said, I give up and leave you to your beliefs, it's not my problem. Your sake cup is full. Unfortunately it will end up confusing a newcomer into the field, and we can't have that. Lo and behold: same sword, same light conditions. BLUE RED Light doesn't make the dark chikei rings change color, no. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Posted October 5 Report Share Posted October 5 Why not use the simple technique description of chikei ? Chikei are lines of fine nie in the ji. So if there is an nie line, than we do have chikei, if there is no nie line, no chikei. Regarding the color : This has nothing to do with the defintion. Even nie appears in different colors, i say only kuro ( black ) nie by example. Another example, kinsuji and ginsuji, both are lines of nie, but one reflects more golden, the other silver. Differnt colors of unhardend steel are also not unsual. So the only way to say chikei or not is the simple defintion. Just my two humble cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brano Posted October 5 Report Share Posted October 5 31 minutes ago, Jacques D. said: I'm appalled by the ignorance and lack of culture of some people: if the chikei appear white in the photos, it's only a matter of light reflection. You'll find the same thing on this tachi attributed to Norishige. That said, I give up and leave you to your beliefs, it's not my problem. https://sword-auction.com/en/product/15644/as22601-刀：無銘則重（特別保存刀剣）/ Jacques - with all due respect to you I agree that chikei has a specular sheen in daylight But when taking photos in a room, chikei does not behave like this For the photo you gave as an example, the lights are positioned so that there is no reflection of light from the surface of the blade I've taken several thousand shots of blades and I've never photographed a chikei like this Different blades and different light conditions 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSM101 Posted October 5 Report Share Posted October 5 This discussion is like "chess with pigeons". 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Posted October 5 Report Share Posted October 5 24 minutes ago, CSM101 said: This discussion is like "chess with pigeons". Yes, it is so simple if one only understand what chikei realy is. The technical def. is so dam easy. But well, here are some chips and coke....next round in the color-fight ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex A Posted October 5 Report Share Posted October 5 4 hours ago, Jacques D. said: I'm appalled by the ignorance and lack of culture of some people: if the chikei appear white in the photos, it's only a matter of light reflection. You'll find the same thing on this tachi attributed to Norishige. That said, I give up and leave you to your beliefs, it's not my problem. https://sword-auction.com/en/product/15644/as22601-刀：無銘則重（特別保存刀剣）/ One word pictures Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shugyosha Posted October 6 Report Share Posted October 6 15 hours ago, Jacques D. said: I'm appalled by the ignorance and lack of culture of some people: if the chikei appear white in the photos, it's only a matter of light reflection. You'll find the same thing on this tachi attributed to Norishige. That said, I give up and leave you to your beliefs, it's not my problem. https://sword-auction.com/en/product/15644/as22601-刀：無銘則重（特別保存刀剣）/ So, as usual, you’re the one who’s right and everyone else is wrong. Thank God you’re here Jacques, where would we be otherwise? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matsunoki Posted October 6 Report Share Posted October 6 22 minutes ago, Shugyosha said: and lack of culture of some people: Methinks the pot is calling the kettle black. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivkin Posted October 6 Report Share Posted October 6 I think it illustrates the point how subjective the "knowledge" can be, especially in a short term. My father once wrote that the only "science" which relies heavily on deduction and formal proof is mathematics, and maybe because of that mathematics might not be a "science" per se - instead of generating knowledge it converts it between equivalent representations. Some of which are arguably more useful than others. Other fields remind me of famous economics paper by a conservative Nobel prize winner which demonstrated strong correlation between nation's debt and GDP growth... except the growth part was dominated by zero debt countries like Somalia. To this point, I would address the issue of "chikei" in a bit different manner. Why use yet another term related to a nie formation? The reason might be is that very high contrast hada with wide black lines can be formed in multiple ways. It can be that the steel has different amount of carbon (high tends to be dark grey) or slag (in polished steel aluminum oxide produces black and phosphorus - deep black color). It can be that its due to martensite formation with a specific size, which does create characteristic black lines, i.e. "chikei". Therefore Houju hada while also black-striped is not seen as per se an advantage since many believe it has considerable "slag content" (though it was never tested afaik), but while in some poor images Norishige might look similar, more often than not it considered a superior steel since the black colored lines are formed by chikei. Overall, chikei is a telltale sign of upper end work, often present in Soshu and some other schools. In a related manner, Inazuma when you just look at it, something "similar" can be produced by folding lines, but if it comes with nie concentration it becomes a sign of upper-upper grade Soshu work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex A Posted October 6 Report Share Posted October 6 Agree with Kiril, as in subjective Also, learned what anyone thinks here often gets turned on its head over the years and has little effect on what others may think. Just too many variables. Debating such issues now feels a bit pointless. Someone thinking they know it all, well, thats up to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raynor Posted October 13 Report Share Posted October 13 A discussion is most fruitful when debating not stating. Taking things personally always ends up derailing things into senseless bickering, trust me there are never any victors in a forum fight. This thread is to me, very educational but it is starting to turn into the teachers fighting. Gentlemen, agree to disagree the subject is open to different perspectives this is not about whether the earth is flat or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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