What exactly determines the price of a nihonto?

[Jacques D.]

 

 

 

20 hours ago, Schneeds said:

I'm confused by this.  Shintetsu is just visible core steel due to over polishing, isn't it?  Or are you saying Rai works came out of the forge with shingane already visible?  Why would visible shigane ever be a sign of quality, irrespective of the quality of the shigane?

 

I never said it's shintetsu, there is no shintetsu in the swords of the Rai school and others from the Kamakura period.

 

 

Quote

Same quoted article clearly mentions that some Koto swords have core steel

 

I doubt of the reliability of that reference. I must have had in hands over 300 swords from the Kamakura period, but I've never seen one showing shintetsu ; the methods employing it (Makuri Kobuse etc.) were invented in the early Muromachi period.

[Gakusee]

2 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

 

 

 

 

I never said it's shintetsu, there is no shintetsu in the swords of the Rai school and others from the Kamakura period.

 

 

 

I doubt of the reliability of that reference. I must have had in hands over 300 swords from the Kamakura period, but I've never seen one showing shintetsu ; the methods employing it (Makuri Kobuse etc.) were invented in the early Muromachi period.

 

Jacques, you used to quote the D-K effect a lot in the past and even had it in your signature before you saw the errors in your ways and much more appropriately have included an environmentalist one. Kudos for that. Always found that initial approach aggressive and unwarranted, but….please do not base your conclusions on the 300 Kamakura swords you have held. 

 

Even if you doubt the veracity of what Peter has written about lamination and multilayered techniques in his text, there are some notable citations describing shingane and kawagane

    •    “Nihonto Meikan” (日本刀名鑑): Describes the evolution of Japanese sword forging methods and highlights the importance of lamination techniques developed in the Kamakura period. It mentions how the use of different steel types (shingane for the core and kawagane for the outer surface) became standard during this time.
    •    “Kokon Kaji Biko” (古今鍛冶備考): A swordsmithing text that documents the methods used by ancient Japanese blacksmiths, including the introduction of multi-layered steel forging, specifically mentioning the use of shingane and kawagane to create blades with a balance of hardness and flexibility.
    •    “Token Bijutsu” (刀剣美術): A publication on Japanese swords that describes how the introduction of folding steel and lamination techniques, which include shingane and kawagane, can be traced back to the late Nara and Heian periods. However, it emphasizes that the techniques became more sophisticated and widespread during the Kamakura period.

According to records, folding techniques likely developed through interaction with Chinese and Korean blacksmithing practices during this time, evolving into the multi-steel structure that included inner and outer layers.

 

and so on 

[Jacques D.]

Quote

Nihonto Meikan” (日本刀名鑑): Describes the evolution of Japanese sword forging methods and highlights the importance of lamination techniques developed in the Kamakura period. It mentions how the use of different steel types (shingane for the core and kawagane for the outer surface) became standard during this time.

Which page? I have this book. I've yet to see a Kamakura sword showing shingane.

 

From Nagayama's connoisseur book page 33

[Jacques D.]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 9/17/2024 at 9:10 PM, Gakusee said:

 

Jacques, you used to quote the D-K effect a lot in the past and even had it in your signature before you saw the errors in your ways and much more appropriately have included an environmentalist one. Kudos for that. Always found that initial approach aggressive and unwarranted, but….please do not base your conclusions on the 300 Kamakura swords you have held. 

 

Even if you doubt the veracity of what Peter has written about lamination and multilayered techniques in his text, there are some notable citations describing shingane and kawagane

    •    “Nihonto Meikan” (日本刀名鑑): Describes the evolution of Japanese sword forging methods and highlights the importance of lamination techniques developed in the Kamakura period. It mentions how the use of different steel types (shingane for the core and kawagane for the outer surface) became standard during this time.
    •    “Kokon Kaji Biko” (古今鍛冶備考): A swordsmithing text that documents the methods used by ancient Japanese blacksmiths, including the introduction of multi-layered steel forging, specifically mentioning the use of shingane and kawagane to create blades with a balance of hardness and flexibility.
    •    “Token Bijutsu” (刀剣美術): A publication on Japanese swords that describes how the introduction of folding steel and lamination techniques, which include shingane and kawagane, can be traced back to the late Nara and Heian periods. However, it emphasizes that the techniques became more sophisticated and widespread during the Kamakura period.

According to records, folding techniques likely developed through interaction with Chinese and Korean blacksmithing practices during this time, evolving into the multi-steel structure that included inner and outer layers.

 

and so on 

 

If there's one thing I don't accept, it's people lying to discredit me. Until proven otherwise, the Nihonto meikan I own is a swordsmith's repertory, it does not deal with manufacturing techniques (the subject is not even broached). As for the Kokon Kaji Biko, this book was written by the shogunate's tester : Yamada, Yoshimutsu , and I challenge you to show me where it says what you claim it says.

 

https://www.digitale.../bsb11175205?page=,1

 

ps the worst is that there are 4 (??) who like without even looking if what you say is true or not.

[Jussi Ekholm]

I cannot comment on the construction style debate as it goes well above my knowledge. I think there might be even various views by experts in Japan on the subject too. For Tōken Bijutsu if there will be magazine number provided I can check the article. There are some extremely technical articles in the magazines over the years but as that is not that interesting to me personally I haven't noted them down and with 600+ magazines in shelf finding some randomly takes bit too much time.

 

However Jacques is correct regarding Nihontō Meikan. It is focused purely on documenting swordsmiths.

 

To bring the discussion little bit back to original topic. I think sometimes even extreme rarity is not valued that highly compared to established smith that are considered to be at high level.

Here is a link to a tachi that is so far the only item of Yamato smith Yoshimasa (吉正) that I have been able to find. As you can see even the experts have slightly varying views as NBTHK goes for Senju'in and Tanobe goes for Tegai. Of course not huge difference in the attributions. The sword might not win any beauty prizes but I would much rather have it than just another Tadahiro katana for example. It also comes down to preferences in valuation. The big Japanese dealers are extremely knowledgeable on prices and getting huge deals will be difficult as they know the market most likely much better than us. However I think pricing one of a kind items might be extremely tricky, there are lots of old smiths by whom signed remaining work is extremely difficult to find. However they can be gotten much much cheaper than Nagamitsu, Rai Kunitoshi etc. from whom there are well over 150+ signed examples remaining to this date.

[Jacques D.]

Worth reading

 

http://ohmura-study.net/994.html

[Hoshi]

It is an undeniable fact that Rai blades use a multi-layered construction.

 

I posit that this is one of the reason how they outcompeted the Awataguchi school. Simply put, they were able to cut costs of raw material by using a laminated construction. 

 

Rai Hada is a distinct discontinuity in the grain of the jihada that appears along the surface following repeated polishing. It is a sign of masterful forging? Not per se, only insofar as it contributes to an attribution to Rai. 

 

Now one argue whether this is Shingane (i.e low carbon steel) or medium carbon steel, or a kneaded combination of various materials. I don't find these terminology games to be particularly interesting. And it is confusing to newcomers. Personally I prefer being agnostic on what it is, and speaking simply of core steel, meaning the steel used for the core that shows through the jihada following polishes. Often Shingane is associated with low quality steel. This is not necessarily the case. There is an enormous variation in the quality of core material across periods, schools and smith. 

 

And it is also an undeniable that all else being equal, a Rai blade showing intact jihada is preferable to one showing patches of Rai Hada. 

[Jacques D.]

4 hours ago, Hoshi said:

It is an undeniable fact that Rai blades use a multi-layered construction.

 

I posit that this is one of the reason how they outcompeted the Awataguchi school. Simply put, they were able to cut costs of raw material by using a laminated construction. 

 

Rai Hada is a distinct discontinuity in the grain of the jihada that appears along the surface following repeated polishing. It is a sign of masterful forging? Not per se, only insofar as it contributes to an attribution to Rai. 

 

Now one argue whether this is Shingane (i.e low carbon steel) or medium carbon steel, or a kneaded combination of various materials. I don't find these terminology games to be particularly interesting. And it is confusing to newcomers. Personally I prefer being agnostic on what it is, and speaking simply of core steel, meaning the steel used for the core that shows through the jihada following polishes. Often Shingane is associated with low quality steel. This is not necessarily the case. There is an enormous variation in the quality of core material across periods, schools and smith. 

 

And it is also an undeniable that all else being equal, a Rai blade showing intact jihada is preferable to one showing patches of Rai Hada. 

A reliable reference to share or are they just words with no real content ?

[Alex A]

Interesting reading, will always end in the clashing of horns, so to speak 

 

A simple way to look at it. A sword is only worth what someone ignorant or uneducated is willing to pay.

 

Stick within your realms,

[Schneeds]

7 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

A reliable reference to share or are they just words with no real content ?

Markus Sesko seems to be of the opinion that it is shigane.  If not, what in a mono steel construction would account for hada?  Polishing through the kawagane seems like a much simpler explanation. 

 

https://markussesko....i-2-jigane-jihada-1/

[Jacques D.]

12 hours ago, Schneeds said:

Markus Sesko seems to be of the opinion that it is shigane.  If not, what in a mono steel construction would account for hada?  Polishing through the kawagane seems like a much simpler explanation. 

 

https://markussesko....i-2-jigane-jihada-1/

I see you're not familiar with the process. The tamahagane is not homogeneously loaded with carbon. making it more homogeneous and ridding it of impurities is the purpose of folding. It is this folding that creates the hada. The so-called Rai hada is a patch of hada that is less tight than the rest (hadatachi). it is obtained by inserting a piece of metal with a lower carbon content during the 5 or 6 final folding. I remember a Rai Kunitoshi tachi with this Rai hada on both sides of the blade in the mono-uchi, at exactly the same level and size.

[Gakusee]

On 9/20/2024 at 4:13 PM, Jacques D. said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If there's one thing I don't accept, it's people lying to discredit me. Until proven otherwise, the Nihonto meikan I own is a swordsmith's repertory, it does not deal with manufacturing techniques (the subject is not even broached). As for the Kokon Kaji Biko, this book was written by the shogunate's tester : Yamada, Yoshimutsu , and I challenge you to show me where it says what you claim it says.

 

https://www.digitale.../bsb11175205?page=,1

 

ps the worst is that there are 4 (??) who like without even looking if what you say is true or not.

 

Jacques, apologies for the confusion: it is not the Meikan but the Taikan. The Nihonto Taikan , Koto Volume 1 the section about Rai school. One could refer for instance to pages 40-55. While they do not explicitly mention the terms shingane or kawagane, some of the pages talk of the “weak skin” of the Kunitoshi when running some comparisons to Kunimitsu or less of the weak skin in Kunimitsu and comparing against Awataguchi Yoshimitsu  vs the other, and reference the Raihada in there as the weak skin. The way I interpret this is they infer a surface or top layer that is sometimes weak and sometimes differential steel shows. 

[Jacques D.]

肌立ち = Hadatachi or Hadatatsu  = coarse (Nagayama's page 83) 

 

In no way it means shingane.

 

ps keep your excuses to yourself, I now know who I'm dealing with

[Gakusee]

13 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

肌立ち = Hadatachi or Hadatatsu  = coarse (Nagayama's page 83) 

 

In no way it means shingane.

Yes thank you; that is the hadadachi indeed, but what about the sentence immediately below on the same page saying that here and there there is weak hada showing through , ie effectively another layer showing through? 
 

And page 54 specifically calls out the Rai hada and calls it weak layer? 

 

 

We can also just make this easier and have some sources in English, which are very straightforward. 

[Mark S.]

3 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

 

ps keep your excuses to yourself, I now know who I'm dealing with

 

 

[Jacques D.]

Weak doesn't mean shingane a hada can be strong rough or weak. Nagayama says shinshinto hada is generaly weak (page 83). 

 

Quote

We can also just make this easier and have some sources in English, which are very straightforward  

 

Would like to know who is this "reference"

 

 

[Gakusee]

7 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

Weak doesn't mean shingane a hada can be strong rough or weak. Nagayama says shinshinto hada is generaly weak (page 83). 

 

 

Would like to know who is this "reference"

 

 

 

I like Nagayama a lot and often also quote him.  However in this particular instance I do not think he is right about the dating of layered methodology. 
 

The English source I quoted was Nakahara, from Facts & Fundamentals. The Japanese (Taikan) in general has negative overtones on the Rai hada showing through. If it were a good thing it would not be called “weak”. 

[Gakusee]

And finally, Jacques,  (as I really do not need to adduce any more evidence beyond the Taikan, the Facts & Fundamentals and this), here is an extract, together with the English translation put together for your convenience, of the Fujishiro Koto volume. And a master polisher such as Fujishiro will know what he is talking about….

So, please let us put this to bed and move on with life. 
 

 

[Jacques D.]

You're free to believe what you like, I've held over thirty Rai swords (one of the schools I know best) and I'm still waiting to see one where the shingane appears. Having said that, you need to know what the shingane looks like, and I do.

 

End of discussion

[Shugyosha]

It may not add anything to this discussion but Hizen school blades are famous for their thin outer steel and of course they tried to emulate Rai school blades. 
 

I think part of the issue lies within the difference between western and Japanese thought. Muramasa is famous for his hamon running close to the edge of the blade, but this isn’t considered a flaw. Likewise the thin outer steel on Hizen blades is just their work style. A famous shinto smith (Kotetsu?) is famous for his kitae ware but these aren’t considered bad workmanship in this smith. 
 

It’s a form of mental Aikido: if a craftsman is universally held up as being a genius then the flaws in his work cannot be flaws and we have find a means of justifying them - hence “Rai hada”. It’s still shingane though. 

[CSM101]

Part I

 

It is always good to see a civilized discussion. With opinions based on facts. This one here seems to be a little bit too theoretically. That´s why you can see now some of the discussed points.

 

From "Jigane & Jihada", sword Nr. 31 Rai Kunimitsu, juyo token with Rai hada, end of Kamakura and Nr. 32 Ko-Aoe Koretomo with sumi-hada. mid Kamakura, Tokubetso Juyo.

 

Uwe G.

[CSM101]

Part II

[Lewis B]

Some blades seem to completely embrace the Shintetsu vibe. Take this Juyo Sekishu Naotsuna

 

[Shugyosha]

As has been said before, it’s us westerners that have the problem with delaminations/ shintetsu. The Japanese focus on the hamon. 

[Jacques D.]

19 hours ago, Lewis B said:

Some blades seem to completely embrace the Shintetsu vibe. Take this Juyo Sekishu Naotsuna

 

Where do you see shintetsu ?  I think you need dot learn  hada. Last words about Rai hada, you can see chikei in this area can you see chikei in shintetsu ?

[Lewis B]

57 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

Where do you see shintetsu ?  I think you need dot learn  hada. Last words about Rai hada, you can see chikei in this area can you see chikei in shintetsu ?

Are you saying the areas I circled in red are not Shintetsu? There are none of these features on the ura side.

[Matsunoki]

1 hour ago, Jacques D. said:

Where do you see shintetsu ? 

Just in case @Jacques D. missed the red circles…..enlarged for his benefit.

[Matsunoki]

….and one of the other images …

 

[CSM101]

Some people   m  i g h t    not know the difference between chikei and Rai hada. So, here again an example: katana, attributed to Rai Kunimitsu; Tokubetso Juyo Token. The dark lines are chikei. In my eyes there is a difference to Rai hada. But what do I know? Or the NBTHK?

 

 

Uwe G.

[Rivkin]

25 minutes ago, CSM101 said:

Some people   m  i g h t    not know the difference between chikei and Rai hada. So, here again an example: katana, attributed to Rai Kunimitsu; Tokubetso Juyo Token. The dark lines are chikei. In my eyes there is a difference to Rai hada. But what do I know? Or the NBTHK?

 

 

Uwe G.

 

That's one sexy chikei blade! Yukimitsu? Or maybe even Sadamune?

Edit: I just noticed its Rai Kunimitsu... wow!