Rats or Mice? Is there a difference?

[Tensho]

I have 2 pairs of menuki that appear to be rodents. I would think the long slender ones are rats and the "chunkier" ones are mice. Opinions?

[Bugyotsuji]

The word ne or nezumi covers both of the English words rat and mouse.

Generally the rodents found in Japanese houses were divided into three, Dobu-nezumi, Kuma-nezumi and Hatsuka-nezumi. See illustrations:

https://www.google.com/search?q=ネズミの種類日本&client=safari&sca_esv=0112f005af7dfb38&sca_upv=1&hl=en-gb&biw=390&bih=663&ei=Z57TZoa8Of6Rxc8PlM7foAU&oq=ネズミの種類日本&gs_lp=EhNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwIhjjg43jgrrjg5_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_GiAQ&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp#vhid=8ZbxWpjkmVsAcM&vssid=l

[Franco D]

15 hours ago, Tensho said:

Opinions?

 

Edit. Morning eyes changes my mind, yes, all rats ... tails and ears.

Edited September 1 by Franco D

[Spartancrest]

I wonder why the mice are often shown with spotted coats? - Wild mice are usually uniform in colour, pet mice often have a spotted or patched coats - are these "pet portraits"?

 

They look like they had really big rat problems in the past! 

 

 

      

 

      https://collections.mfa.org/objects/27594

[ROKUJURO]

Matt,

if you look at the tails of the depicted rodents, it is clear that these are rats.

[Matsunoki]

Rats have scaly tails, mice have hairy tails. As Jean says, these are all rats.

[Bugyotsuji]

But as we know from having this kind of discussion before, taxonomy was never so big in Japan. For example you will hear "Snakes? Safer to kill them." (Well, ok, that does happen all over the world, I agree.)

 

Close observation and accurate rendition was an art that developed later.

 

Just a couple of months back when I pointed out using a photograph how, depending on the sub species, some white egrets can have yellow beaks and black legs, other white egrets black beaks and yellow legs, some metalwork artisans were fascinated to see the difference.

 

Whether rats or mice, they are nezumi, agents of Hotei and symbols of wealth in your storehouse. Many Tosogu are hard to pin down! 

[kissakai]

Learn something every day

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Might be nice to have a 'wildlife in Tosogu' thread...(?)

[Lewis B]

55 minutes ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Might be nice to have a 'wildlife in Tosogu' thread...(?)

This was the subject for the NBTHK-EB meeting back in June. Some amazing pieces were available for viewing. 

[Matsunoki]

1 hour ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Might be nice to have a 'wildlife in Tosogu' thread...(?)

Go on then Piers…..you have the honour as it was your idea🙂

 

[cluckdaddy76]

Good topic, this tsuba has made me ask myself the same question, mice or rats???

[PhoenixDude]

Rats are commonly depicted as they are one of the 12 animals of the Chinese zodiac. You see these quite often in tosogu, take a look at the wild things thread for examples.

[Andi B.]

Rats with writing utensils...

 

 

[Matsunoki]

9 minutes ago, Andi B. said:

Rats with writing utensils

That’s a new one!🙂

[PhoenixDude]

Not new, they have been at CNN and fox news for decades.