Thoughts on tsuba

[GeorgeLuucas]

I am again interested by another tsuba; found on a sword I received in a sale/trade. It has a nice rich color to it. I was hoping for your thoughts about it. Is it of any quality? What is the motif? 

All constructive discussion welcome. 

Let me know what you think! 
Cheers,

-Sam 

[Spartancrest]

I think the tsuba represents "Hanshan" [Chinese] - "Kanzan" in Japanese. He is often depicted reading a large scroll. Normally he is accompanied by his sidekick "Shide"[ Chinese] - "Jittoku" [Japanese] who usually carries a broom. It is possible the daisho to your tsuba may have had Jittoku on it- ?

I think your guard is late Edo and has been mounted - though not more than once or twice.

 

An example of Jittoku from another post 

 

   https://education.as...de-approx-1500-1625/

 

https://www.worthpoi...an-jittoku-wakizashi

[GeorgeLuucas]

Thank you Dale! That’s very helpful and informative. 
 

That makes sense because I believe it is on what is a late edo wakizashi, and it fits pretty well. I thought the koshirae was an attractive set. 

Much appreciated! 
 

[Spartancrest]

Very nice sword, I really like the two fan menuki - the Gunbai is particularly large. Worth a closeup if you can manage it. 

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunbai

[GeorgeLuucas]

Thank you! I liked it too. Its no showstopper, but I thought it was a really nice package for the trade/price

 

The Menuki don’t appear particularly fancy or ornate to my (novice) eye, but they are large! 

[GeorgeLuucas]

Oops double post*

Edited August 25, 2024 by GeorgeLuucas
Double post

[GeorgeLuucas]

[Jake6500]

This is a nice tsuba, the type of thing I would add to my own collection. I have a couple of tsuba with similar aesthetic depicting Daikoku and Ebisu which I have yet to post on the forum. Probably different schools/origins but slightly similar style.

[BIG]

Sam, never saw such an alien finger on  tsuba. Never saw a menuki like this. May be the „whole thing“ is fake??

Sorry and we do not have Ford telling us the truth.

 

 

[Jake6500]

2 hours ago, BIG said:

Sam, never saw such an alien finger on  tsuba. Never saw a menuki like this. May be the „whole thing“ is fake??

Sorry and we do not have Ford telling us the truth.

 

 

 

The hand is one thing about the design I did find a bit odd. It is probably the one part of the design I don't like. That and the linework feels a little stiff or unnatural. 

 

That said it struck me as a late design rather than a modern fake. I also trust Dale's judgment.

 

If it was obtained for a reasonable price (along with the rest of the sword) I think it's a decent piece. Not something I would pay top dollar for but something I might buy.

[Bugyotsuji]

Peter, what do you mean by 'alien finger'? That curved forefinger?

[Jake6500]

8 minutes ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Peter, what do you mean by 'alien finger'? That curved forefinger?

 

I believe this is what Peter is referring to, the unnaturally shaped hand and curved fingers on the back and the curved forefinger on the front.

[BIG]

Yes Piers, and the menuki imo looks plumsy..

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Those delicate scholar's fingers are in a style that I have seen elsewhere, on Buddha hands possibly. The tsuba itself seems quite normal to my eyes, though I agree that the sensu and gumbai, while they do the job from a distance, look pretty weak close-up. 

[Spartancrest]

[BIG]

I do search for an Edo or older Tsuba with a Buddha finger design. No results. ( Ali express have one..)

ITs possibly bought from the tourist information shop..

Dale, please give us your opinion.

[BIG]

Sorry late. But am I right with the ALIEN finger, also nicknamed ALF finger..

[Bugyotsuji]

Oh, come on! There is too much finger-pointing around here.

“I’m done here”, as some folks are fond of repeating each time.

 

 

[Spartancrest]

Peter there are a lot of strange hands and fingers.

 

But they usually belong to Oni - Priest hands are usually more "normal"

 

[Jake6500]

Hands and fingers in general are pretty difficult to draw or carve, so I don't think it's wise to dismiss every tsuba with a weird hand or finger as a modern fake.

 

Tsuba like any other form of art have different levels of quality and were made by artisans of varying levels of skill or expertise.

 

Not every tsuba will be a generational masterpiece. Some are just modest pieces with a nice cultural design, slightly stiff line work and a weird hand.

 

At least, this is what I think, but I will defer to Dale's wealth of knowledge and experience.

[Lewis B]

I don't have a problem with the hand. It works functionally if one was to hold a scroll open for reading. Admittedly the artistic impression is a little lacking but the tsuba makers weren't all Rodan's or Giacometti's. The menuki on the other hand (pun intended) are quite crude. 

[GeorgeLuucas]

Yes the menuki are indeed crude. Like mentioned, they do the job from a distance 
 

I would be very surprised if this were fake or a tourist item. The blade is ubu with a nice hamon with lots of nie - in nie deki. High shinogi, and 23 inch Nagasa. I’ve handled a lot of fake swords, and this doesn’t give me any of those vibes. 
 

It was my assumption… That this is a late edo wakizashi, maybe for a merchant. It has lower end (especially the menuki) but properly fitted fittings. Possibly fitted even more recently.
 

Im no expert, but this was my impression of the sword. BUT I will always defer to the more knowledgable if ya’ll think otherwise. 

Thank you all, I appreciate the discussion! 

Cheers,

-Sam 

[Matsunoki]

Sam, I don’t think you’ve got a fake here but I do think it’s a “bitsa” ie bits of this and bits of that put together to create an impression for the sole purpose of selling an apparently complete sword. 

The ito wrap appears to be very recent and very badly done, you have a kabutogane from a handachi or Tachi which does not match the fuchi. The menuki are rather dubious. The tsuba does not look fake but the patina looks somewhat enhanced?

Not sure any merchant would want to be seen carrying it…..they had rather more ostentatious tastes.

Just my impressions…..with apologies!

[BIG]

Colin wise words, Sam also apologies..

 

 

[GeorgeLuucas]

No apologies necessary Colin and Peter! I’m here for exactly this kind of discussion and I appreciate your feedback. 
 

Everything you’ve said Colin makes a lot of sense; and I think you’re correct! I got this item at a local gun show, and like mentioned above, I do like it personally - even if it’s bits and pieces. I like the color scheme and blade. But don’t worry, my feelings won’t be hurt by the truth 
 

Full transparency here: I sold a non traditional showato in type 98 fittings. With the money I got another showato that’s particularly long in custom fittings, and also this wakizashi - in addition to taking a few hundred dollars home.
 

So two swords for one, and some extra cash - I think I did OK, maybe not great .

Cheers,

-Sam
 

 

[Lewis B]

The Samehada looks a little too regular. Genuine ray skin? Ultimately though it comes down to whether or not you are happy with the blade being the biggest point for appreciation.