What do you see

[klee]

Good evening

 

Had my recently aquired blade out and wanted to post a few pics and see what others see in the blade as far as hamon activity and hada. 

 

Seller deacription only says Ko Itame but all I see is mokume. I ve always had a difficult time picking out the 2 when not side by side.

 

Apologies if the pic is less than ideal

[Rivkin]

I see an interesting blade with shirake utsuri, ko itame, possibly masame in shinogi-ji (unclear), mostly nioi based hamon with a little bit of ko nie, with some unusual forging within it, but I would not call it mokume.

Its a good photo, and I always enjoy guessing what it might or might not be by just one photo with activities. To me it looks like post-Kamakura work of some ambition, most likely late Muromachi-Tensho period....or maybe shinshinto?

[klee]

Great guess with late muromachi ! 

 

It s a Sue Bizen Kiyomitsu .

 

From another angle

[klee]

Kirill, this one is still with the dealer in Japan and waiting shipment. Would you like to take a guess

[Rivkin]

I suspect some good and pre-1340 stuff. Yamato Taima or Tegai Kanenaga.

[DoTanuki yokai]

 ko Mihara 

[klee]

I was actually looking for Tegai/ Ko Mihara but ended up settling on this blade which is NBTHK attributed to

Ko Kongo Hyoe

[Lewis B]

What would this feature in the jihada be called? I have a similar feature in a couple of areas on my blade (Yamato Shikkake) and thought it was Shintetsu. But it has a ji-nie in the centre and is not a featureless black patch that is usually associate with exposed core steel. 

 

[DoTanuki yokai]

Assuming we are on the right track with Yamato this shows how these blades are constructed 

http://www.ksky.ne.j...99/construction.html

 

So I would simply think that the “patch” you see is simply some larger pattern on the surface that have more prominent “outline” from the forging that can be because of different carbon contents or weld quality. (You can still see a smaller pattern inside)
Now you could look at it from a steeper angle to the light to see if the effect of hardening varies there but it is not a flaw or bad imo. 
Generally I would expect lower steel quality on the “back steel”. 

[Lewis B]

1 hour ago, DoTanuki yokai said:

Assuming we are on the right track with Yamato this shows how these blades are constructed 

http://www.ksky.ne.j...99/construction.html

 

So I would simply think that the “patch” you see is simply some larger pattern on the surface that have more prominent “outline” from the forging that can be because of different carbon contents or weld quality. (You can still see a smaller pattern inside)
Now you could look at it from a steeper angle to the light to see if the effect of hardening varies there but it is not a flaw or bad imo. 
Generally I would expect lower steel quality on the “back steel”. 

How would the swordsmiths of the age be able to make 'lower' and 'higher' quality steel. There was no metallurgical analysis possible, obviously. Would there have been different possessing eg faster, going on that would lead to lower quality material? I have read that the (b), (e) and core steels were of equal quality and processed similarly in the Kamakura and Nanbokucho periods. So much so that even when the Shigane is exposed it shows a crystalline structure. 

[Franco D]

How much have these swords with larger patches of hada been polished down? That could be one answer when inconsistencies in hada pattern begin to appear. Just to be clear this is not the same as saying the sword is tired. But it may reflect back upon the full ability and skill of the sword smith. 

 

Regards

[DoTanuki yokai]

Even today there is no metallurgical analysis involved. 
Lower qualilty would be what has not enough carbon content for the hard edge. You can see the carbon content by breaking hardened pieces and look how they broke. 
 

Edit: just to add that this 2 piece construction in earlier times is a Yamato tradition related thing. 

[Lewis B]

9 minutes ago, DoTanuki yokai said:

Even today there is no metallurgical analysis involved. 
Lower qualilty would be what has not enough carbon content for the hard edge. You can see the carbon content by breaking hardened pieces and look how they broke. 

Good point. It's not like modern smiths are ordering tamahagane from Hitachi with full elemental analysis. Still made from iron sand, just like in older times. Following this thread what is it about iron sand from the Northern Provinces eg Etchu and Kaga being noticeably different (darker) than from say Yamato?

[DoTanuki yokai]

I would think that is a question for a professional polisher because they change the treatment with Nugui depending on their kantei. 
 I don’t  know if the steel is really darker. 
 

Edit: Some people working at the big Tatara are Hitachi employees 

[Rivkin]

7 hours ago, klee said:

I was actually looking for Tegai/ Ko Mihara but ended up settling on this blade which is NBTHK attributed to

Ko Kongo Hyoe

 

If its ubu then the nakago can be the decisive factor.

Otherwise strong utsuri and tired spots close to shinogi which are consistent with Kongo.

Also Kongo often have long-narrow kaeri compared to mainline Yamato, though I don't think its seen here...

[klee]

Unrelated question but are these horizontal micro scratches from handling/cleaning or just part of the polish.

 

They are not visible unless direct light hits it a certain way.

 

Was curious since it seems like absolutely everything and anything will scratch tamahagane lol

[Lewis B]

1 hour ago, klee said:

Unrelated question but are these horizontal micro scratches from handling/cleaning or just part of the polish.

 

They are not visible unless direct light hits it a certain way.

 

Was curious since it seems like absolutely everything and anything will scratch tamahagane lol

My guess. Poor quality uchiko

[Franco D]

8 hours ago, Lewis B said:

My guess. Poor quality uchiko

 

Not necessarily. Too much finger pressure even with "polisher's uchiko will leave hike. 

 

21 hours ago, Lewis B said:

Still made from iron sand, just like in older times.

 

Just to be clear when saying "just like in older times" are you talking about materials, process, or both?

Thanks.

[Tohagi]

...maybe I answer late, for me it's not Komihara ( no waterfall long Kaeri). Yamato Tegaï seem's à better guess.

Kongo bey could have be a good choice ( I wasn't avare of the long fine kaeri...)

 

Best, Éric VD 

[Lewis B]

1 hour ago, Franco D said:

 

Just to be clear when saying "just like in older times" are you talking about materials, process, or both?

Thanks.

I was referring to the raw material from which the iron is smelted. 

[Franco D]

1 hour ago, Lewis B said:

I was referring to the raw material from which the iron is smelted.

 

 

In "old times" weren't smiths gathering their own materials?

 

Didn't the Bizen smiths in particular have access to especially high grade iron sand washing down in the river there?

 

Aren't materials and how they were gathered becoming commercialized one big factor and change in the transition from Koto to Shinto?  Or did I read that wrong?

 

It just seems to me when viewing the top class swords and steel of old (Bizen, Rai, Soshu, ... ) something has been lost along the way. 

 

Or am I completely wrong?

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Recently I saw a sample of some reddish iron sand from Bizen, probably the Yoshii River, alongside more ‘pure’ iron sand from Tottori/ on the Japan Sea coast. My host was explaining how the impurities partly defined Bizen blades.

 

Akomé satetsu from Bizen on the right.

 

 

 

[Franco D]

39 minutes ago, Bugyotsuji said:

My host was explaining how the impurities partly defined Bizen blades.

 

It would seem then that somebody knew and understood exactly where and what they were doing when they gathered their own materials once upon a time. Direct feedback and control has its benefits.

 

Thanks for your post, Piers.

[Lewis B]

1 hour ago, Franco D said:

 

 

In "old times" weren't smiths gathering their own materials?

 

Didn't the Bizen smiths in particular have access to especially high grade iron sand washing down in the river there?

 

Aren't materials and how they were gathered becoming commercialized one big factor and change in the transition from Koto to Shinto?  Or did I read that wrong?

 

It just seems to me when viewing the top class swords and steel of old (Bizen, Rai, Soshu, ... ) something has been lost along the way. 

 

Or am I completely wrong?

 

Of course historically there was a gradual commercialisation of the supply of iron sand. It's my understanding one reason, besides being close to their sponsoring Daimyo or clan leader, that the smiths settled where they did in Bizen, Kaga, Kamakura, Sagami, Yamato, Etchu etc because the source of their iron was on their doorstep so to speak, in the rivers and along the coast. Whether they personally collected it is debatable, but they would have known where it came from. And because they sourced locally any unique characteristics or properties in terms of elemental variations in the iron sand would be incorporated into their blades. Hence why I mentioned that Northern makers during the Kamakura and Nambokucho eras had steel with a blacker tonality and is a Kantei feature for Tanobe and Shinsa. Moving into the Muromachi and Edo periods the supply of iron sand and possibly tamahagane was more centralised (controlled by the ruling classes?) and those unique differentiating features in the steel of the earlier smiths were lost. At least this is how I'm reading the history.