How common was religious imagery on tsuba?

[ZH1980]

If the tsuba is from the Edo period and the crucifix was included in the original design (or shortly thereafter), the size of the crucifix seems strange to me. If the crucifix was meant to be hidden under the seppa, the size of the crucifix seems too large, no?

[Spartancrest]

If this thread is dealing with "religious imagery on tsuba" we may need to broaden the number of religions - Hidden or not very well hidden "Jewish" Samurai  

Yes I know it is a family mon but hey that doesn't stop it being a religious symbol - the same as a multiple of so called "Christian" tsuba patterns.

 

  https://www.jauce.com/auction/r1151724941     

 

 

     https://varshavskyco...collection/tsu-0235/

 

I guess the question remains "just what defines a religious symbol"?

[Iaido dude]

I think that all formal and historical religious practices and beliefs are among the ways in which spirituality (as a broader experience) is manifested. Jewish disasporo in ancient Japan commissioning tsuba with religious symbols? Hmmmm. 

 

It is a fish scale motif and a Hojo family mon, but the first tsuba with overlapping inverted triangles (one solid, one open) also reminds me of a yagyu design. 

[Spartancrest]

6 hours ago, Iaido dude said:

but the first tsuba with overlapping inverted triangles (one solid, one open) also reminds me of a yagyu design. 

Yes it is not that far away from this design - just inverted with the sharp ends trimmed - - There must be many variants getting about. [but I don't see any religious symbology in this one]

 

[Iaido dude]

I find the composition of a solid juxtaposed to an open geometric form very appealing. The open design example from Sergei’s site is more recent and too newish (although still not likely Jewish ) in appearance. 

[Jesta]

I think that what defines a symbol as “religious” would be the intention. Many symbols are common across cultures and and not intended as anything except geometric or good-looking decorations. It becomes religious when the creator or wearer intends for it to be a representation of their faith. So, interlocking triangles are not “Jewish” unless they are intended to be that way. I woudl say that a Jewish person might well buy one and use it as a symbol of their faith, in which case it would become religious. 

When I created this thread I was thinking about whether the craftsmen who made the tsuba were deliberately creating tosogu with religious symbols for people to declare their faith, or as talismans etc. I do like the way the thread has evolved though… It is nice to see such a wide-ranging discussion. 

[Iaido dude]

Here's another Buddhist motif of a temple bell (bonsho) seen most commonly in Kanayama tsuba and less commonly in Owari tsuba. The latter is being offered on Jauce at the moment, but I am looking for a more lively Kanayama from the Momoyama Period. This one is a bit too stiff with less of the Wabi Tea aesthetic. Still tempting nonetheless. 

 

 

There is a great section on the slight variations of this motif in Owari To Mikawa No Tanko. Having 5 nipples and a waist is the prototypical design.

 

 

 

[Spartancrest]

  With or without a rim. [This one reminds me of a WWI  sea mine ] 

[Spartancrest]

Let us not forget Shinto religious symbols with Torii gates marking the entrance to shrines and sacred places.

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Subtle…(?)

 

[Kurikata]

Another Bell

[MauroP]

Another ringing implement: unpan - 雲板. It's a kind of gong in shape of cloud used in Buddhist monasteries.

 

[Spartancrest]

47 minutes ago, MauroP said:

a kind of gong in shape of cloud used in Buddhist monasteries.

Mauro you beat me to it! While there are many Kawari-gata versions there are also ones within a rim.

 

[Bugyotsuji]

I used to own one of those, I think. Water under the bridge. Nice to see it again,though. 

[Iaido dude]

Dale, I'll add Shinto Shrine to my list!

Piers, what an interesting ship tsuba with crucifix motif!

Bruno, this bonsho is very strong!

Mauro, I continue to learn--add unpan to my list!

[Jesta]

20 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Subtle…(?)

 

 

I wonder if that is meant as a crucifix or if it just a part of the ship. If it is meant as a crucifix, then it is super sneaky…

[Bugyotsuji]

LOL yes. It could suggest that Jesuits came by ship, as a historical fact, but if the authorities questioned you, you would still be free to say, "That is not my faith!"

Or "That is the tiller, stupid!"

[Spartancrest]

On 10/8/2024 at 5:16 PM, Bugyotsuji said:

Subtle…(?)

  More like constantly in your face! I got sick of finding examples. [enough to sink a bulk carrier!]

 

  This one is less like a cross and more like a capstan   Perhaps there were a  lot of "Hidden Sailors" more than "Hidden Christians" - you know what they say about sailors! 

[Toryu2020]

That is of course the tiller and not a cross, same idea was discussed in the JSSUS newsletter years ago...

[Alex A]

Seen 2 described as "Christian" here, make of them what you will.

 

The Lanes Armoury | A Stunning Edo Period Tettsu {iron Plate} Krishitan {Christian.} Tsuba, Of The Holy Cross, Heavenly Eight Pointed Stars in Gold, & The River Of Life in Silver. In Superb Condition & From A Very Fine Collection of Tsuba.

 

 

The Lanes Armoury | An Edo Tettsu Krishitan {Christian} Tsuba Of Twin Symbols of The Rope And The Cross. In Superb Condition & Traditionally Boxed For Display. From A Very Fine Collection Of Beautiful Antique Tsuba

[BIG]

Religious theme and political/social theme combination..

 

https://de.linkedin....153322958704640-C6XS

[Spartancrest]

On 8/22/2024 at 12:50 PM, Spartancrest said:

There is a colour image of this Gold pocket watch case used as a tsuba but I can't lay my hands on it right now.

That said, pocket watches or the like were items of Western ephemera. I could see why Japanese people in the Edo Period with a fascination for Western culture might want such a design. Essentially, it is for the same reason that we obsess over Tosogu in this forum! [Quote from Jake6500 Posted August 22]

[Iaido dude]

I agree, but I think those people post-Early Edo were the merchant class rather than the buke. There is no religious imagery here, just Western-influenced bling that spoke to wealth and social standing rather than spirituality.

[Tensho]

[Bugyotsuji]

Mr Tensho, posted 15 September, previous page.

[Tim Evans]

Hosokawa connections to Catholicism

 

Hosokawa Tadaoki (Retired name is Sansai) was a patron of the famous tosogu-shi of Higo province. Although not a convert himself, according to the Historical and Geographic Dictionary of Japan by E. Papinot:

• Married to Akechi Tama who was baptized in 1597 as Gracia
• Son, Tadatoshi, who was baptized in 1597. Later made to recant at the request of the Tokugawa Bakufu
• Son, Tatsutaka, who was baptized in 1587 as John
• Brother, Okimoto, who was baptized in 1594
• Tadaoki was very friendly with the Jesuits, particularly Gregorio De Cespedes

 

Presented is a Higo tsuba that bears a strong similarity to a Catholic monstrance. I attribute this one to Hirata, although Nishigaki has been suggested. A monstrance is a Catholic ritual object, an example below. 

 

Fred Geyer has done a deep dive into Christian symbolism on 16th century and later Japanese objects. If this interests you then check out his old NMB posts or find his essay, Kirishitan Ikenie Tsuba in the 2006 Kokusa Tosugu-Kai book

 

 

[Tensho]

12 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Mr Tensho, posted 15 September, previous page.

Whoops, glanced over it when I scrolled through the pages. Thanks!