OceanoNox Posted August 22 Report Share Posted August 22 This page (http://www.kodokei.com/ot_043_1.html) implies that the so-called tokei tsuba was indeed popular, and the design was already not new in 1770. The page goes on to say that it also looks like a sun with its corona. There is no implication that it's a christian theme, simply a clock gear (specifically a Japanese clock gear). The document cited may be this one: https://kokusho.nijl...io/100238317/2?ln=ja, but it's more than 600 pages long of old Japanese... I have seen it written that the sun/sharp gear appearance is a hint to the Jesuit IHS symbol, but I cannot confirm (the symbol itself is certainly juuust old enough that the Jesuit mission in Japan could have introduced it: 1541 for the symbol, 1549 for the mission). To @Jesta, I feel the same way for many tsuba designs, especially the tosho and kachushi. There is a simplicity and rusticity that is extremely appealing to me, but I wonder what was the intent behind those designs. Is there a hidden meaning? Did they simply like the shape? Was it simple because they lacked the technology or know-how to make more elaborate depictions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartancrest Posted August 22 Report Share Posted August 22 47 minutes ago, Jake6500 said: That said, pocket watches or the like were items of Western ephemera. I could see why Japanese people in the Edo Period with a fascination for Western culture might want such a design. There is a colour image of this Gold pocket watch case used as a tsuba but I can't lay my hands on it right now. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesta Posted August 22 Author Report Share Posted August 22 51 minutes ago, Spartancrest said: There is a colour image of this Gold pocket watch case used as a tsuba but I can't lay my hands on it right now. As always… your incredibly extensive memory for where to find these things also blows my mind… I can see why nanban tsuba might have similarities with pocket watch designs - they are often intricate and very pretty. What I don’t get is why a gear… Why not a clock face? I can see why one or two people might have liked the design, but there are sooooo many… If it doesn’t have a religious connotation, or some good luck charm type thing, then I struggle to understand it. It might be a cultural thing, where it was just a fad, but I haven’t seen it explained in that way… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baka Gaijin Posted August 22 Report Share Posted August 22 Here's a clue trail, but you'll have to search Kaga Kuji no In Habaki and Tsuba Talismanic Protection It's all here on NMB in articles over the years. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlorianB Posted August 22 Report Share Posted August 22 Zachary, I think the Japanese dealer had the Chi-Rho-symbol of the early christianity in mind: However, without the curve at the top it means all and everything. Also I doubt this particular symbol could be connected with the Jesuits in Japan. We must have in mind, that the composition on many Tsuba simply plays with the horizontal, vertical and/or diagonal axes. Best, Florian 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugyotsuji Posted August 22 Report Share Posted August 22 There are the two diagonal spears, crossed lances, Arma Christi instruments of the passion too. In order to understand the depth of Japanese belief, Martin Scorsese's 'Silence' portrays it rather well, seeemingly stronger even than the missionaries themselves had hoped. Some years ago I was at a national gathering of gun troops and a few hundred of us were wearing full armour in front of Hikone Castle. I was shocked to see the Otomo ones from Oita with large silver crosses hanging proudly over their breastplates. (This links back to Jake's post on Monday on the previous page.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZH1980 Posted August 22 Report Share Posted August 22 3 hours ago, FlorianB said: Zachary, I think the Japanese dealer had the Chi-Rho-symbol of the early christianity in mind: However, without the curve at the top it means all and everything. Also I doubt this particular symbol could be connected with the Jesuits in Japan. We must have in mind, that the composition on many Tsuba simply plays with the horizontal, vertical and/or diagonal axes. Best, Florian Fascinating. Thanks for this Florian. Like I said, I didn’t see the link to Christianity when I bought the tsuba, but this thread reminded me of that conversation. This is all very interesting (including the past discussions on this topic). Thanks all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartancrest Posted August 23 Report Share Posted August 23 Just getting back to Justyn's original post image I found a mokko version [unfortunately very worn] https://www.jauce.com/auction/e1149723226 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesta Posted August 23 Author Report Share Posted August 23 1 hour ago, Spartancrest said: Just getting back to Justyn's original post image I found a mokko version [unfortunately very worn] https://www.jauce.com/auction/e1149723226 Thanks. Very interesting. This one, like mine, seems to be slightly asymmetrical. The seppa dai is not quite centred around the nakago ana (particularly obvious on the reverse in mine, but also a bit off in this one… I wonder if it was poor workmanship or something else. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugyotsuji Posted September 1 Report Share Posted September 1 Budded cross, Ojimé and tsuba. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnTo Posted September 3 Report Share Posted September 3 I forgot all about this tsuba I bought as part of a job lot from the Albert Newall (artist and antique dealer) collection a few years ago. I think that I have posted it before, but.. At first glance the tsuba appears to be from a European rapier, but the nakago ana shows its Japanese origin. The Japanese had a craze for Portuguese and Spanish armour in the late 16th C (Momoyama) and perhaps this tsuba dates from then. The iron on the inside has become delaminated, which again makes me believe that this tsuba was made from Japanese folded iron. The inside is coated with red lacquer and I think it would be interesting to have this carbon-14 dated. The tsuba is a thin steel wan-gata (tea bowl) shape and has a large inome (boar’s eye) cut into the top. Usually, Japanese tsuba have four inome and the large single one on this tsuba makes me believe it is a European heart shape; the Heart of Jesus being a powerful symbol of the catholic faith. The tsuba is also decorated with gold and silver highlighted engravings, including three phoenixes in gold (sorry about the photo which does not make them clear). The phoenix is a bird that rises from the ashes, i.e. is resurrected, and the Christian panoply of gods is made up of the trio Father, Son and Holy Ghost. So, is this a Christian tsuba? Best regards, John 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake6500 Posted September 3 Report Share Posted September 3 4 hours ago, JohnTo said: I forgot all about this tsuba I bought as part of a job lot from the Albert Newall (artist and antique dealer) collection a few years ago. I think that I have posted it before, but.. At first glance the tsuba appears to be from a European rapier, but the nakago ana shows its Japanese origin. The Japanese had a craze for Portuguese and Spanish armour in the late 16th C (Momoyama) and perhaps this tsuba dates from then. The iron on the inside has become delaminated, which again makes me believe that this tsuba was made from Japanese folded iron. The inside is coated with red lacquer and I think it would be interesting to have this carbon-14 dated. The tsuba is a thin steel wan-gata (tea bowl) shape and has a large inome (boar’s eye) cut into the top. Usually, Japanese tsuba have four inome and the large single one on this tsuba makes me believe it is a European heart shape; the Heart of Jesus being a powerful symbol of the catholic faith. The tsuba is also decorated with gold and silver highlighted engravings, including three phoenixes in gold (sorry about the photo which does not make them clear). The phoenix is a bird that rises from the ashes, i.e. is resurrected, and the Christian panoply of gods is made up of the trio Father, Son and Holy Ghost. So, is this a Christian tsuba? Best regards, John To me this seems like a more plausible one than most. As you wrote in your post it seems more like it belongs on a fencing rapier based on the shape which would lead one to suspect it might have been owned by a Portuguese missionary. I'm not sure about the heart shaped cut, I am not sure about how this would connect to the religious iconography but the phoenix as a symbol of resurrection could clearly be interpreted through a Christian lens. The Portuguese presence in Japan started in 1543, peaked around the 1570s and begins to diminish in the 1590s so it's possible this piece might date to around the end of the Muromachi or start of the Azuchi-Momoyama circa 1573. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartancrest Posted September 3 Report Share Posted September 3 7 hours ago, JohnTo said: The tsuba is a thin steel wan-gata (tea bowl) shape There is a similar Wangata in the Ashmolean museum shallower cup and two piercings later filled with silver. Two suhama ("sand-banks", three-lobed devices forming the badge of the Sanada) EAX.10158 http://jameelcentre....ection/7/10237/10344 I like the vermillion red lacquer on the ura. [PS good luck finding the ura image on-line. Why do museums like to hide things?] 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iaido dude Posted September 13 Report Share Posted September 13 The Ohno kuruma tsuba thread was started by me in August 2024. I agree with quite a few observations by Jake and others about the appearance of buddhist and christian iconography on sword fittings during the Momoyama and Early Edo Periods of particular interest to me. Zen buddhist iconography in the explicit forms of the kuruma, manjimon, amida-yasuri, and others was fairly common. I think it’s important that the context of the tsuba for the buke be kept in mind. It had an essential functional role as a guard, but the motifs were also of spiritual value (I mean this as an overarching theme) for a warrior class engaged in battle to the death. The buddhist motifs would easily allow for the borrowing of Jesuit/Catholic iconography in place of, for example, the preexisting amida-yasuri motif for spiritual inspiration among the buke. The common reference to the “clock gear” tokei motif is plain wrong. As advanced in “Owari To Mikawa No Tanko,” it is actually a Jesuit/Catholic symbol introduced by the Portuguese as pointed out earlier on this thread. Why the heck would buke want a “clock gear” on their blood stained katana? Where is the spiritual meaning? Maybe merchant dandies would later commission tokei for their katana as status symbol bling, but not the buke during the late 16th and early 17th centuries. Death was a serious business… 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vajo Posted September 13 Report Share Posted September 13 On 8/22/2024 at 6:41 AM, FlorianB said: Zachary, I think the Japanese dealer had the Chi-Rho-symbol of the early christianity in mind: However, without the curve at the top it means all and everything. Also I doubt this particular symbol could be connected with the Jesuits in Japan. We must have in mind, that the composition on many Tsuba simply plays with the horizontal, vertical and/or diagonal axes. Best, Florian Pax romana. Emperor Konstanin had a dream before the battle on the milvinien bridge against Maxentius 312. In this dream a angel told him to paint the shilds of the roman legion with the cho-ri sign to win the battle. And he won the battle. This was the beginning of the east and west roman empire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deez77 Posted Saturday at 06:31 AM Report Share Posted Saturday at 06:31 AM Hello all, For reference as part of the discussion, here's a Buddhist wheel design I have, and a gear which I guess some think may be related to Christian iconography. Regards Damon 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugyotsuji Posted Saturday at 11:07 AM Report Share Posted Saturday at 11:07 AM In for a penny, in for a pound. The remains of one… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iaido dude Posted Saturday at 02:12 PM Report Share Posted Saturday at 02:12 PM 10 hours ago, Deez77 said: Hello all, For reference as part of the discussion, here's a Buddhist wheel design I have, and a gear which I guess some think may be related to Christian iconography. Regards Damon I think that the first one is also Christian iconography. The kuruma is pretty specific as a symbol of the spiritual path. The most common image has 8 spokes to denote the eight-fold path that traces back to the ancient origins of buddhism from the time of Gautama Siddhartha. Here are a kuruma (Ohno) and an image of Buddha with sun and stars (Kanayama). 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iaido dude Posted Saturday at 04:34 PM Report Share Posted Saturday at 04:34 PM This is another Christian corona from Jauce. https://www.jauce.com/auction/k1152128417 It’s a mid- to late-Owari. Kanayama were not made in mokko shape and there are no tekkotsu. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iaido dude Posted Saturday at 05:26 PM Report Share Posted Saturday at 05:26 PM This is a kuruma with spokes in negative silhouette. This manjimon is the finest Owari I have ever seen and am hoping to purchase. It would be only the second Owari to add to my collection and likely the last. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartancrest Posted Saturday at 10:05 PM Report Share Posted Saturday at 10:05 PM Positive/negative manjimon 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZH1980 Posted Sunday at 03:19 AM Report Share Posted Sunday at 03:19 AM This tsuba has been for sale on Mercari for some time now. Curious if anyone sees any “red flags” that this may not be from the post 1614 Edo period as the discreet placement of the cross might suggest. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iaido dude Posted Sunday at 03:37 PM Report Share Posted Sunday at 03:37 PM This is an intriguing tsuba because it has both Buddhist (kuruma) and explicit Christian (crucifix) motifs. The motif of the inner ring references both amida-yasuri and Jesuit/Catholic iconography. I haven’t seen a convincing crucifix motif before Edo, so less likely to be a Momoyama work. What school is this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZH1980 Posted Tuesday at 11:03 AM Report Share Posted Tuesday at 11:03 AM Thanks for highlighting the Buddhist element, Steve. The seller has not listed the school in his advert and, frankly, I’m not learned enough yet to make an educated guess … Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugyotsuji Posted Tuesday at 11:40 AM Report Share Posted Tuesday at 11:40 AM Perhaps not 'explicit' as it would have been somewhat covered by both seppa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugyotsuji Posted Tuesday at 12:59 PM Report Share Posted Tuesday at 12:59 PM Bladed cross 剣十の字 'Ken Jū-no-Ji' Mon motif. Not recorded, but from circumstantial evidence, probably the Hachisuka Mon while they were openly Christian. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iaido dude Posted Tuesday at 06:35 PM Report Share Posted Tuesday at 06:35 PM Very interesting and appealing design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iaido dude Posted Tuesday at 06:37 PM Report Share Posted Tuesday at 06:37 PM 7 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said: Perhaps not 'explicit' as it would have been somewhat covered by both seppa. Is the motif carved on the seppa dai anything other than a crucifix? The 8 spokes projecting outwards from the sepia dai is actually a kuruma. The spokes touch the inner ring with amira-yasuri. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugyotsuji Posted Tuesday at 06:46 PM Report Share Posted Tuesday at 06:46 PM It is a crucifix, but the question remains as to when it was inserted there, centuries ago or more recently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iaido dude Posted Tuesday at 07:18 PM Report Share Posted Tuesday at 07:18 PM I see what you mean. Hard to date the original crafting of the tsuba. I don’t have enough experience with the design or execution to make an intelligent guess as to the category/school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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